Bodvar-
Just a personal note. I was only questioning the position of intellect
over society as it was being described in the conversation about the two
boys shooting their classmates. My point being that if intellect was
thought of the way it was in that conversation (i.e.-planning an ambush)
then it would have to arise from the biological level. I tried to extend
this idea but was quickly set straight by Donny as to the "true" nature of
the intellectual level. I think it's a good thing for all of us to
continually question the structure of the MoQ. It's the only way we will
ever be sure it will hold up to the scrutinization of "outsiders". Sorry
for the confusion.
Rick
At 11:40 PM 10/29/98 +0000, you wrote:
>Wed, 28 Oct 1998 Platt Holden wrote:
>
>> Hi Jonathan, Magnus and LS:
>> Jonathan B. Marder wrote:
>> > Who says Lila has more than biological value? To me the sanctity of
>> > human life applies to every living person. It applies to the aged, the
>> > young, the mute, the blind, the crippled, the paralyzed, the "simple"
>> > Their lives are valued just because they are ALIVE. That's a biological
>> > classification.
>
>> May I suggest the following Pirsigian change to your assertion:
>
>> "Their lives are valued just because they are HUMAN. That's an
>> inorganic, biological, social and intellectual classification."
>
>> > Magnus, I have a very deep aversion to any person or philosophy that
>> > rejects this fundamental ethical value.
>
>> Are there not fundamental ethical values that call for the
>> sacrifice of human life? If not, what do you say to those who
>> died on Omaha Beach so that you and I would be free to discuss
>> fundamental ethical values?
>
>> Platt
>
>Hi Platt, Magnus, Jonathan and Squad
>What Platt says puts things right. Of late a lot of strange
>understandings of the MOQ have crept into the discussion. The good
>man Jonathan defends the human rights as if those are SOCIAL values -
>EVEN BIOLOGICAL!!. Fintan chimes in and says that society should
>range above intellect, and so does Richard B too (I believe?).
>
>Magnus intervened to correct matters, but was grossly misunderstood
>by Jonathan. Platt, however, found the example that demonstrates the
>MOQ stance. Let me only add this:
>
> ****************************************
>
>First, the various static value patterns are not evolutionary levels
>left behind. They are as valid today as ever and they are us; not
>anything "out there". Moreover, they are moral patterns and
>Biological Morals do not contain "mercy", the life of other
>individuals has no value at that level. What matters is survival and
>proliferation. Through this "survival of the fittest" Life has grown
>ever more diversified, and the most advanced form - humans - reached
>a stage where societies, more complex than the semi-biological family
>configuration, developed.
>
>Only at the Social Moral plane does individual worth emerge, but
>merely to the degree that it could contribute to the common cause,
>and in a sense is the Social Pattern of Value (SoPoV) just as
>"primitive" as it was in100 000 BC, and if some catastrophe should
>make humans fall back to the next static latch we would be just as
>"merciless" as the Inuits who left their old to die on ice floes
>(something which was accepted and endorsed by those affected).
>
>I won't go into the development of the Intellect, but here the idea
>of self and its value slowly emerges. This ancient Intellect - still
>very much part of (in the service of ) society" - is immensely
>older than the events described in ZMM, but over the aeons this
>new-fangled value spawned countless modifactions to the human
>communities until it "took over" so that the former social-societies
>became intellectual-societies as described in ZMM and LILA.
>
>Speaking about social values as "heart" (Fintan) is possibly right,
>SoPoV works through emotions so it is heart all right, but it is
>hatred as well, one moment we feel its warmth, the next it demands
>sacrifice for its own survival. And sacrifice has been given and
>will be given,Platt's allusion to the Allied landing in Normandie
>highlights it: Biology (life) was overruled by Society and the the
>individuals - who constitute all value levels - responded by
>duty...the arch social value.
>
>One final thing about each static level's "jurisdiction" which - in
>addition to itself - is the pattern below. In that capacity Intellect
>influences society heavily. It is often said that the allied
>soldiers gave their lives for freedom and democracy, and that's right
>in the sense of SOCIETIES INFLUENCED BY THOSE IDEALS, but the
>Intellect has no direct sway over Biology, only Society has the power
>to move individuals to the extreme.
>
>Bodvar
>
>
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