Lithein: i am too much of a person to be defined by my gender.
Serious question: Is this denial? Would a man feel the need to say this?
no, mary. i truly feel that. that is why i loved the quote that came from
deep inside me without a qualm. it wasn't forced.
and i can see a man saying the same thing. we all are trapped by categories
of society's making. that is why the intellect level has more value than
the societal.
i would also like to comment in regards to Lila. in the book, she suffers
from a mental illness, manic-depression, i believe. much like Pirsig and
Chris did. her questionable quality has nothing to do with gender. it is
her lifestyle which Rygel questions. her lifestyle, we find out later, has
been dictated by her mental illness. that is why, i think, you should
finish reading the book.
lithien
lithien
http://members.tripod.com/~lithien/Lila2.html
-----Original Message-----
From: Mary Wittler <mwittler@geocities.com>
To: Lila Squad <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Date: Sunday, November 29, 1998 3:10 AM
Subject: Re: MD the MoQ from the feminine
>Diversity of Opinion
>
>* Why are so few women in the squad?
>
>
>>Horse:the majority of Internet users are, apparently, male
>
>
>Yes, probably something less than 50% but the real ratio is not reflected
>here.
>
>>Fintan: In Ireland 40% of users are female. That is not why there are so
>few females in the Squad. It is because the dry intellectualist
objectivity
>of philosophy is rightly perceived by so many women to be of LOW QUALITY.
>And so they stay away.
>
>
>Unfortunately, it's been my experience that many women seem to be engrossed
>in a mental life filled with mysticism. Like Horse when faced with sexism
>(see below), I often find myself at a loss when things are discussed
>illogically. Perhaps the women of the Squad are simply more logically
>oriented than the statistical average and thus take sustenance from the
>debate.
>
>>Diana: As for lack of women round here, it's a pity but it's the same on
>other mailing lists and on usenet, I believe it's because of wider social
>issues that have nothing to do with Lila. There is a social moral pattern
>that discourages women from being independent and intellectual...
>
>I don't know what it's like to be a woman outside the United States. In
>this country, women engaged in this type of debate as recently
>as 15 or 20 years ago would have been considered "weird".
>
>>Jonathan: I'm afraid that none of the excuses I've read so far really hold
>water. Let's face it, the Lila Squad is male dominated.
>
>That about sums it up.
>
>
>
>* Is Pirsig a misogynist?
>
>>Horse: Nope! I've re-read the passage several times and I can't spot the
>hatred towards women in the passage. But as this is from a male perspective
>I could easily be wrong.
>
>Ok, I'm willing to accept your statement at face value.
>
>"The light from the open hatch above was so dim it concealed whatever lines
>of cosmetics and age were there and now she looked softly cherubic..."
>
>The light from the open hatch above was so dim she could no longer make out
>the beer-gut or the remote control clutched tightly in his sweaty palm,
like
>a club - or something else. Sated now in sleep he looked almost
child-like,
>harmless.
>
>Is there a difference?
>
>>Diana: Lila Blewitt was written the way she was to bring out the conflicts
>in Phaedrus biological and intellectual patterns. If she had been smart
then
>these conflicts would never have arisen and there would be no way to
>illustrate the various moral patterns that are the subject of the book.
>
>Yes, but I can visualize a lot of other ways one could illustrate moral
>patterns and I'm disappointed that he chose this one.
>
>>Horse: The reason she appears as a loser and (possibly) why Pirsig treats
>her in this way is to illustrate the low Quality of the Objective (read
>Male) view of promiscuous, self abusive women.
>
>Horse, you have just redeemed yourself!
>
>>Fintan: HIS is the lust and yet the "badness" is transferred into HER
>breast.
>
>Age-old story.
>
>>Fintan: This is revolting. I feel ill just reading it.
>
>Yes.
>
>>Troy: whenever bigotry raises its hand, i say, "opportunity for increased
>awareness."
>
>Yes, we should all remember this.
>
>
>
>* Is the male/female dichotomy biological?
>
>>Bodvar: I consider everything about the book to be in the service of
>demonstrating the MOQ so the description of Lila Blewitt may be shallow
but
>there is no feminine or masculine component to the MOQ. The sexual
>attraction/discrimination is a Biological value of enormous age and
>importance as is hunger and craving for food.
>
>>Horse: try and keep a quality perspective and not a female/male/biology
>perspective
>
>I need to think about this some more. I owe you a post.
>
>
>
>
>>Diana: (don't be too clever or you'll never find a husband).
>This is it in a nutshell.
>
>>Lithein: i am too much of a person to be defined by my gender.
>Serious question: Is this denial? Would a man feel the need to say this?
>
>>Bodvar: Another passage from ZAMM that made a deep impact on me was the
one
>where he complains about Phaedrus not living up to expectations: the class
>at the Navy Pier University - where he teaches Quality - goes like
wildfire,
>but poor Phaedrus is not a shepherd and grows more and more silent and
>scared of his "followers".
>
>Yes, I recall that passage. This, too, left me with the same sense of
>self-dread evoked by "Lila". Pirsig is masterful at this. He has me
>wrapped around his little finger.
>
>
>* Promulgating the MoQ
>
>>Horse: I think the basis for the MoQ is easily understood by anyone with a
>simple explanation. It's the minutiae which cloud the issues sometimes
>
>Has the Squad been debating minutiae for a year? More on this later too.
>
>>Lithein: maybe mary should finish it
>
>Yes I should. I will. But to me it will be sort of like a child taking
bad
>medicine.
>
>
>Wishing you happiness,
>Mary Wittler
>mwittler@geocities.com
>ICQ# 19168557
>http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Crete/8087/index.html
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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