Donny writes:
Apollonian art is art that arrests you
-- you are STOPED! Frozen like a deer in headlights. The awe you
expereience shuts you down. This is the "rapture" most suited to
(acording to Nietzsche) painting, sculpture, and archatecture.
Lithien quotes:
"The Apolline wrests us from the Dyonisiac universality and delights us in
these individuals; to them it attaches our pity, through them it satisfies
our sense of beauty, which craves great and sublime forms. It parades
images of life before us and move us to a contemplative understanding of the
core of life contained within them....the Apolline lifts man out of his
orgiastic self-destruction, and deceives him about the universality of the
Dionysiac event, deluding him into the idea that he can see only a single
image of the world."
Nietzsche goes on to explain that music is the actual idea of the world
(Dyonisiac) and drama precisely the opposite...a mere reflection of that
idea (Apollonian). Without the Apollonian bridge to reality we could not
make sense of the Dyonisiac. the two are needed.
to me then, Dynamic Quality would equal the Dyonisiac described by
Nietzsche. the intellectual static level would perhaps equal the
Apollonian.
Donny further writes:
bellow the surface of this sea is the timeless world of Myth and
Dream. The present situation arises out of this timeless field, runs it's
course, and then colapses back into it -- replaced by another "present
situation." But TIME HERE IS NOT A LINE.
Lithien comments:
the tapping of the Dyonisiac in its vast universality would be timeless for
it exists outside of matter which distorts time and makes it appear linear
in our physical experience...this would equal Dynamic Quality as well. we
are the separated individuals whose time has slowed down and experience life
in static levels.
it all makes sense,
lithien
http://members.tripod.com/~lithien/Lila2.html
-----Original Message-----
From: Donald T Palmgren <lonewolf@utkux.utcc.utk.edu>
To: moq_discuss@moq.org <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Date: Monday, November 30, 1998 12:36 PM
Subject: MD the Nietszche question
>
>DONNY CONTRASTS NIETZSCHE'S APOLLO/DIONYSIAN AESTHETIC W/ PIRSIG'S
>METAPHYSICAL-AESTHETIC.
>
>Nietzsche's (essentually Greek) view is actually the opposite of RMP's
>view/representation. For Nietzsche, the Absolute is static (Void-like?)
>perfection and the field of time/experience is a chaotic whirl of opposing
>forces which arises from (or falls out of) the Absolute. For RMP, the
>ultimate, "pre-intelectual" *Reality* is characterized as dynamic and
>what's left in it's wake is the patterened, "static" world of concepts and
>labels and hierarchies.
> Apollo--->Dionysis
> DQ---->sq
> **************************************
>
> Hello.
> This Nietzsche quastion sort-of bounced around in my head and --
>while reading Spengler's *Decline of the West* -- I hit apon the
>difference here.
> First, as I said before, Nietzsche's distinction -- the Apollonian
>and the Dionyssian -- is not at all a metaphysical distinction. It referes
>to the two types of "rapture" or "frenzy" one experiences in the presence
>of art or beauty or the sublime. Apollonian art is art that arrests you
>-- you are STOPED! Frozen like a deer in headlights. The awe you
>expereience shuts you down. This is the "rapture" most suited to
>(acording to Nietzsche) painting, sculpture, and archatecture.
> Dionysisn "rapture" is the experience that fills you w/ energy --
>it MOVES you. You're reved-up. You're now ready to take on the world. GO
>GET 'EM TIGER!! This sort of "rapture" is best expressed through drama
>and music. And the highest form of art is (far Nietzsche) dramatic
>tragedy -- because only it can unite the two experiences. You are at once
>filled w/ energy and shut down.
> Now, this is Nietszche's system, but he took it principally from
>Greek aesthetics. Hegel -- whome Nietszche didn't know much of and liked
>even less -- had previously described Greek art in a similer way:
>In-itself (Apollo) implicit, immedeat unity
>For-itself (Dioysis) -- which seperates itself out, tears itself apart and
>devours itself
>and In-and-for-Itself (dramatic tragedy) which is a *medeated* unity --
>oneness now *explicit*
>
> Now what got my mind into this was reading Spengler, where --
>right towards the begining -- he talks about how different cultures have
>had different concepts of time, and one really good key to understanding
>any culture is to understand it's idea of time (it's necessary to
>undersatnd anything about Classical Greece).
>
> Spengler writes:
>_______________________
>In the world-consciousness of the Hellenes all experience, not merely
>personal but communal past, was immediatly transformed into a timeless,
>immobile, mythically-fashioned background.... Thus...to Caeser there
>seemed at the least nothing preposterous in claiming decent from Venus....
>The Classic possesed no *memory*, no organ of history in this special
>sense.... Past and future...are absent and the "pure Present," which so
>often roused Goethe's admiration in every product of Classical life and in
>sculpture particuarly, fills that life w/ an intesnsity that is to us
>perfectly unknown.
>_______________________
>
> I won't bore you w/ the examples and evidence Spengler gives, but
>the picture of time -- the Greek picture -- he arrives at here is that the
>present situation/moment ("What's going on here, now?") is like an island
>-- and bellow the surface of this sea is the timelsee world of Myth and
>Dream. The present situation arises out of this timless field, runs it's
>course, and then colapses back into it -- replaced by another "present
>situation." But TIME HERE IS NOT A LINE.
>
> Now... how this relates to Nietszche and Pirsig:
> In the Classic (and Nietzschien) view, the Absolute -- the Eternal
>world (Plato's world of Forms) is static. It is frozen; it is w/o time.
>Then, there arises (or falls) out of this the field of time-space
>experience -- which is never any "larger" that "What's going on here,
>now?"
> RMP's concept of time is certainly more Western ('Time is an arrow
>in fligt'... or a train), and it significantly informed by a different
>aesthetic experience. RMP's primary aesthetic experience -- which informs
>all his subsequent metaphysical thinking and writing -- was the experience
>of a seed crystal.
>
> From ZMM, chap 15:
>__________________________
> A supersaturated solution is one in which the saturation point, at
>which no more material can be disolved, has been exceeded. This can occure
>because the saturation point becomes higher as the temperature of the
>solution is incressed. When you dissolve the material at a high
>temperature and then cool the solution, the material sometimes doesn't
>crystalize out because the molocules don't know how. They require
>something to get them started, a seed crystal, or a grain of dust or even
>a sudden scratch or tap on the surrounding glass.
> He [young Phaedrus in the lab] walked to the water tap to cool the
>sollution but never got there. Before his eyes, as he walked, he saw a
>star of crystalline material in the solution appear and grow suddenly and
>radically until it filled the entire vessel. He *saw* it grow. Where
>before was only clear liquid there was now a mass so solid he could turn
>the vessel upside down and nothing would come out.
>___________________________
>
> This experience left a mark in Pirsig's mind, for sure. His
>picture of the world is one in which there is first a fluid, dynamic
>moment that is then replaced by a static crystal hierarchy. This is his
>cutting-edge pre-intellectual moment (DQ) and the memories and concepts
>and words which are left in it's wake (sq). His world is an ever-growing
>"wave of crystalization" being led by ever-retreating DQ.
>
> I think Pirsig and Nietzsche have two different pictures of time
>-- illustrated by the difference between DQ-->sq and the Apollo-Dionysisn
>relationships. Now let's all plese check ourselves before we are tempted
>to ask "Well, which is right?" Remember: A picture can't be right or
>wrong; a picture is just a picture. Only things we might say about a
>picture could be right or wrong.
>
> TTFN (ta-ta for now)
> Donny
>
>
>
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