To Roger and any eavesdroppers.....
RISKYBIZ9@aol.com wrote:
> Roger finally responds to Rob on mysticism vs intellect.
>
Roger, I think your post got off to the wrong start and I have to appologize from
the bottom of my heart! Everything you said was interesting and I agree fully.
(I am going to research Kitaro.) I think I confused you by not defining "using
the intellect". I further confused you by applying the term in two completey
different ways.
First, there is general "using the intellect" as in solving an algebraic
equation. Second there is the "using the intellect" as a specific type of
"Pirsig-ism". People "use the intellect" to justify the morality of their action
by applying the intellectual _level_ of Pirsig's philosophy. "Clinton is good/bad
because the intellectual level was freed/dominated" is the second kind of "using
the intellect" is an example. My questioning "the intellect" was specific to the
second meaning and you replied to the first. From here on I will be careful by
using "the intellect" and "the intellectual level" to distinguish the two...
There are two areas nagging me about application of the biological, social and
intellectual levels. First, although the levels are fascinating to discuss and
ponder, I have never applied them to my life issues. They lose relevence. To put
the levels to the test, I asked myself how I felt about some unclear issue like
Clinton, abortion, the value of a friendship, or whatever. Then I asked what do
the levels say? They never provided closure for my intellect.
I think I asked the group a very important question: "Has anyone felt deeply on a
moral issue, because of their intimate experience with it, only to find themselves
changing their minds because they had not contemplated the levels?" I have never
had this experience. I consequently, do not see much value in the levels.
My second intuitive irritation concerns the just intellectual level. At first, I
reasoned because every conscious decision comes from the intellect, any person
could justify their choice as moral because it was from intellectual level. Then
came the "value within value" post. The intellect chooses between the biological,
social or further intellectual level. The most moral thing is for the intellect
to value the intellectual level. (Looks like I confused myself between the two
definitions!)
If I thought about smoking marijuana tonight, it would be very moral to have the
idea, but immoral to actually do it (biology dominating my social and intellectual
levels). This clarification, nontheless, leaves me with an empty feeling in my
stomach. Mysticism has no place here. Instead of freeing the mind and becoming
one with this issue and feeling what is right, one steps outside the experience
and categorizes it according to the levels. Seems like we are back to the
"objective" approach again. Dusenberry's knowledge are "irrelevant anecdotes"
until his experiences are sorted and filtered through Pirsig's levels.
Pirisig does not harmonize the intellect and mystical experience. The intellect
causes contradiction when it prejudges an experience. Instead of thinking about
the intellectual level, I think it is better to let go. When one lets of an idea
ideal or ism, knowledge remains. Think about when you were totally immersed in a
movie. You might have been in a dynamic state such that you were unaware of
yourself completely. Still, did not you not mentally translate the words into
sentences? Did you not follow the plot? Knowledge and the intellect never left.
The difference was the concluding mind becoming an open mind.
> Rob Wrote:
>
> "Because the MOQ tells one to do what is experienced to be right, one can not
> test the MOQ against experience. All we have is experience, so the MOQ adds
> nothing to it. Furthermore, meditation reveals the truth much
> better than thinking about levels, because meditation causes us to be more
> sensitive to reality (quality) than when the mind holds a pre-judgement."
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