ROGER PROBES AND REPLIES TO THE 5 QUESTIONS
Pardon me in advance for my flip replies. I asked for brevity , but very few
of the answers IMHO explained enough. I have added some questions to try to
pry some more specificity from each of you. But please, I am familiar with
the MOQ, so do not respond in MOQisms..... What are the QE,DQ,sq and quality,
in clear, every day, understandable terms? How are they connected ? How do
they differ?
At the end, I have listed my answers....please be equally inquisitive....Am I
explaining myself?
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David answered:
>>>> Q1) Dymanic Quality is the ground and source of being, the
mysticial reality.>>>>>
This could define anything from God to The Mighty Mississippi. How is it the
source?
>>>> Q2) Quality Events are moments of creation, when patterns form.>>>>>
How? What are the patterns formed of?
>>>>> Q3) Static Quality is a patterned, stable form of Quality, that
is not dynamic.>>>>>>>
And what is "quality"? And I know some people that are very dynamic....are
they not patterns?
>>>>>> Q4) Thru a series of QEs, static patterns evolve toward
greater quality, complexity and freedom. The evolution of many static
patterns over time creates enough stability, enough "context" for new
levels to emerge. Its a building process. Inorganic patterns seem to
emerge out of chaos or are grounded directly in DQ. But the organic
patterns require the first level as its ground of being. Life needs
planets and water molecules and stuff like that. When biological forms
reached a certain level of stability, social patterns of value began to
evolve. The social level has the organic level as its ground of being.
Packs need wolves and Society needs people. In exactly the same way,
intellectual patterns emerge out of the social level patterns and depend
on it as its ground, its reality. But the really cool thing is, there no
reason to think the intellectual level could not evolve and mature
enough to give birth to some unimaginable fifth level. On the other hand
it was only born yesterday and is quite the infant itself.>>>>>>
OK
>>>>> Q5) The evolution of the static patterns is toward Quality.>>>>>
Again, what is this Quality? How will we recognize it?
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Glove wrote:
>>>>>>>
1. Dynamic Quality cannot be defined, for definition requires boundaries.
Dynamic Quality creates and destroys static patterns of value.
2. The Quality Event occurs continuously as the observer defines reality.
3. Static quality patterns of value are anything the observer defines.>>>>>>>
How does DQ create and destroy? What if there are no observers? Must observers
be sentient?
>>>>>4. The levels emerge with recognition.>>>>>>
Were they always there waiting to be recognized? How did they get where they
are?
>>>>>5. From a static quality point of view, all is evolving towards greater
recognition/complexity. From a Dynamic Quality point of view, there is no
evolution. All is just this. These two points of view cannot be used
simultaneously. If static quality is considered, Dynamic Quality must be
completely ignored. If Dynamic Quality is considered, static quality must be
completely ignored.>>>>>
Complementarity. Why must the other be ignored?
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Magnus:
>>>> Q1) DQ is the answer to the question: "How can anything become?"
Without it, everything would be completely static. Not static as in
unmoving, but as in predictable.>>>>>>
How can it become? Is Dq unpredictableness?
>>>>>>> Q2) The QE is the source of two SPoV, each one being the subject from
its point
of view. All QEs are more or less dynamic>>>>>>.
How does it make these SPoV's?
>>>>> Q3)SQ is the answer to the question: "How can anything be?"
Without it, the patterns from one QE wouldn't live to see the next.>>>>>
How can it be? How do these QE's "live". What is sq made of?
>>>>> Q4) Mu. I don't think the levels "emerged". Troy's rock a few months ago
comes to mind. The lunar geologists on Apollo 17 looked at rocks formed
billions of years ago, but they read them like an open book. To them,
they were intellectual patterns, just as the ink in a book.>>>>>>
So are they levels? How would you explain them if they didn't emerge out of
each other? Do they need explaining?
>>>>Q5) Not toward, away from static patterns, but still dependent on
them.>>>>>>
What is away from static patterns? And how can it be away and dependent?
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Horse:
>>>>>
Q1)I'm happy with any of the following as they essentially say the same thing:
Change (Horse)
Potential (Jonathan)
How things become (Magnus)>>>>>>
Combined they make sense. But they don't obviously say the same thing.......
>>>>Q2) A collision of Static Value(s)>>>>>
And what are static values? And by the way, I thought the QE made the
patterns, not the pattern collision made the QE?
>>>>>Q3)What's left after DQ has done its stuff.>>>>>>
WHAT IS LEFT?
>>>>>Q4) An iterative process (fueled by DQ?) of increasing complexity and
interaction between all
levels.>>>>>
OK
>>>>Q5) I agree with Magnus. As far as I can see to provide a teleogical
explanation is to posit
some form of guiding intelligence (or similar). The best or most appropriate
static value
latches by a process of survival of the most appropriate. There is no goal -
there is only
what may be.>>>>>
So there is no "evolving to DQ?" Is this the "Que Sera Sera" MOQ? :-)
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Walter:
>>>> Q3) Static Quality is the stable form of Quality, also called a pattern.
Stable is defined as able to exist longer in time, making Static Quality occur
in a continuum of
shorter and longer existing patterns>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
What is stable? Is this matter? or is it stable quality? Or stable DQ? Or
stable MU?
>>>>>> Q5)I agree with Horse and Magnus that it's better to say that all is
evolving away from the static. From the above definition that means that
static patterns, though getting more and more complex are also getting less
and less stable, as in being able to repeat themselves longer in
time.Teleological ontology should not necessarily imply a goal or a kind of
purpose (maybe this is the big mistake many philosophers make).>>>>>>
What is evolving away from the static? Patterns?
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Roger's version:
OK, pay back time for ya'll....... Here are my attempts at answers. Note I
added a definition for quality, it's absence was apparent in the definitions.
I also followed Magnus' lead and reversed the order of 2 and 3.
1a)Quality is value. Everything is defined and created by value.
1b)Dynamic Quality is pure experience. Pure experience is preconceptual value
change or interaction.
3)Static quality is patterned, conceptualized experience.
2)The quality event is an experience event collapsing potential preconceptual
quality into definite conceptualized patterns.
4)As patterns became more complex, they gain the ability to be reactive to
experience. Inorganic patterns emerge into aware biological patterns which
value pattern continuance and extension. The social level emerges as patterns
share and coordinate experience. The intellectual level emerges as societies
learn to "pattern the patterns."
5)Patterns evolve toward enhanced complexity; hence, enhanced freedom of
experience and enhanced experience.
Have at it!
Roger
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