Hi Risky Roger & Squad,
RISKYBIZ9@aol.com wrote:
> What are the QE,DQ,sq and quality,
> in clear, every day, understandable terms? How are they connected ? How do
> they differ?
Ok...
What is Dynamic Quality?
DQ can only be deduced not observed. I'm beginning to think that DQ is
not even a required component of the MOQ.
Magnus, can you tell me more about this?
> Magnus:
> >>>> Q1) DQ is the answer to the question: "How can anything become?"
> Without it, everything would be completely static. Not static as in
> unmoving, but as in predictable.>>>>>>
Why would this be so? What about the weather, for example? Isn't
weather always in a dynamically changing unpredictable state? Do all
aspects of weather arise directly from DQ? Wouldn't it be equivalent to
your statement to say that without environmental pressure, there would
be no change? QED, I propose that DQ is environmental pressure, no
more, no less. Further, I'd like to ask about predictability.
Predictable to whom? Many things predictable in a laboratory today were
completely unpredictable a century ago, and I feel sure that trend will
continue. I guess what I'm driving at is that it seems to me we don't
really need the concept of DQ to drive evolution forward. Pirsig
brilliantly redefined the whole meaning of evolution to include all 4
levels of existence. He redefined the definition of existence. That
idea alone is so powerful as to be worthy IMHO of a Nobel Prize. If you
then add to that the idea that the environment containing something that
exists also now has an expanded meaning which includes not only the
physical world, but also the social and intellectual levels, then I feel
pretty satisfied that you have a complete picture.
What are Quality Events?
> >>>> Q2) Quality Events are moments of creation, when patterns form.>>>>>
> How? What are the patterns formed of?
... from my post this morning...
To me, the Quality Event at the inorganic and biological levels is that
moment when, by sheer bumbling around in the dark, something that works
randomly occurs, is found to have fitness for some purpose, supports the
stability of the larger idea of the environment as it currently exists,
and does not violate the fundamental laws of physics. When those
criteria are met we encounter rightness or Good or Quality.
Glove:
> >>>>>5. From a static quality point of view, all is evolving towards greater
> recognition/complexity. From a Dynamic Quality point of view, there is no
> evolution. All is just this. These two points of view cannot be used
> simultaneously. If static quality is considered, Dynamic Quality must be
> completely ignored. If Dynamic Quality is considered, static quality must be
> completely ignored.>>>>>
Glove, you've lost me here. What is DQ's point of view?
>
> >>>>>>> Q2) The QE is the source of two SPoV, each one being the subject from
> its point
> of view. All QEs are more or less dynamic>>>>>>.
A Quality Event is the resolution of conflict?
> >>>>> Q3)SQ is the answer to the question: "How can anything be?"
> Without it, the patterns from one QE wouldn't live to see the next.>>>>>
> How can it be? How do these QE's "live". What is sq made of?
SQ isn't made of anything other than a mental abstraction.
> Horse:
> Q1)I'm happy with any of the following as they essentially say the same thing:
> Change (Horse)
> Potential (Jonathan)
> How things become (Magnus)>>>>>>
>
> Combined they make sense. But they don't obviously say the same thing.......
Ok then, say change and strike the other 2.
> >>>>Q5) I agree with Magnus. As far as I can see to provide a teleogical
> explanation is to posit
> some form of guiding intelligence (or similar). The best or most appropriate
> static value
> latches by a process of survival of the most appropriate. There is no goal -
> there is only
> what may be.>>>>>
>
> So there is no "evolving to DQ?" Is this the "Que Sera Sera" MOQ? :-)
Long live chance and possibility. Basically, whatever happens will be
good. Working off the presumption that whatever can happen eventually
will happen, then static latching is definitely to be desired since it
by definition precludes the occurrence of some of those things that
could happen, particularly some of those things that are bad. Latch to
preserve the status quo. Try out new possibilities to destroy it.
> >>>>>> Q5)I agree with Horse and Magnus that it's better to say that all is
> evolving away from the static. From the above definition that means that
> static patterns, though getting more and more complex are also getting less
> and less stable, as in being able to repeat themselves longer in
> time.Teleological ontology should not necessarily imply a goal or a kind of
> purpose (maybe this is the big mistake many philosophers make).>>>>>>
>
> What is evolving away from the static? Patterns?
We're not evolving away from the static but toward better static.
> Roger's version:
> 1a)Quality is value. Everything is defined and created by value.
How about everything is defined by its value and made available by its
possibility.
> 1b)Dynamic Quality is pure experience. Pure experience is preconceptual value
> change or interaction.
Pure experience is before experience?
> 3)Static quality is patterned, conceptualized experience.
Static quality is the best possible choice made at the time, considering
all factors.
> 2)The quality event is an experience event collapsing potential preconceptual
> quality into definite conceptualized patterns.
Ok.
> 4)As patterns became more complex, they gain the ability to be reactive to
> experience. Inorganic patterns emerge into aware biological patterns which
> value pattern continuance and extension. The social level emerges as patterns
> share and coordinate experience. The intellectual level emerges as societies
> learn to "pattern the patterns."
Ok.
> 5)Patterns evolve toward enhanced complexity; hence, enhanced freedom of
> experience and enhanced experience.
Ok.
> Have at it!
>
> Roger
>
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