ROGER TRIES TO ADDRESS A BACKLOG OF INTERESTING STUFF
To Glove and Horse:
Glove wrote:
<<
Pirsig seems to have approached this problem both ways. With his four static
levels, he uses evolutionary forces to explain the moral progression within
the levels, yet he also states that the highest quality static pattern of
value is intellect, and that the intellect comes "before the external
world". From that point of view, it would seem that the intellect level is
the beginning and not the inorganic level. Would you agree?
>>
I am not sure I agree yet. This one is very tough. Would it be fair to
respond that neither exists w/out the other? To paraphrase Nishida, they imply
unity?
***************************
Horse responded to me with some of the following:
[I wrote]
> 2)The quality event is an experience event collapsing potential
> preconceptual quality into definite conceptualized patterns.
[Horse Replied]
>>>>>>>
So what is it that is experienced or experiences. I don't mean this in
a Subject/Object way as I think we're using the terminology in a
particular way which is so far undefined. Experience and
conceptualization have different meanings, dependent on the context.
In an inorganic context experience does not mean the same thing as
experience in an intellectual context, although I think they are related
by the overall context in which they occur.>>>>>>
Hopefully this is resolved now? To avoid confusion, I will separate the
conceptual part out so that I don't recreate this definite, conceptualized
misunderstanding.
Q3) Define sq, in terms of the above two def's if possible
[Horse wrote]
> Q3)What's left after DQ has done its stuff>
[I responded]
> WHAT IS LEFT?>
[And Horse replied]
<<<<<Static patterns of value. The QE and/or the
change/potential/becoming create static patterns of Value which form
relationships and interact, giving rise to further change ......>>>>>
Do you agree with the suggestion that they are "experience patterns"?
[I wrote]
> 3)Static quality is patterned, conceptualized experience.>
[Horse wrote]
<<<<
I think we need to be careful of the word "conceptualize" due to the
intellectual connotations involved - though we can probably get away
with "experience".
Static patterns of value are experienced by other static patterns of
value in one huge, seething network of Value/Quality. The base level
is the Inorganic level. Inorganic PoV's interact, combine, experience
in increasing complex ways. At some point the interactions and
experience give rise to biological Patterns of alue, distinct but
dependent on the lower level.>>>>
I agree and accept your suggested improvement
[I wrote]
> 5)Patterns evolve toward enhanced complexity; hence, enhanced freedom of
> experience and enhanced experience.
[Horse]
<<<<<
But patterns of value don't seek enhanced complexity - they become
more complex through constant change - there is no choice in
certain respects. The different levels have increasingly greater
freedom to change because the more evolved something is the
greater the complexity, almost by definition. A higher level is an
escape from the confines and restrictions of the lower level(s). But as
far as I can see this is not a goal but a natural progression.>>>>>>
Okay.
Love All
Rog
PS - Sorry for so many posts at once, it started building fast and furious
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