Hello everyone
Dave Thomas:
>Glove
>
>I think some of the confusion over Pirsig's positions is a result of a
similar
>evolution in his thoughts over the last 50 years.
Glove:
I agree that this certainly must be taken into consideration.
Dave:
>
>On the gravity issue got I caught skimming. Am I right in assuming these
are
>snippets of Pirsig explaining a point to Anthony Watt?
Glove:
Yes, these are extracts from a letter to Anthony McWatt from Robert Pirsig.
Dave:
>
>> >Among these patterns is the intellectual pattern that says
>> >"there is an external world of things out there which are
>> >independent of intellectual patterns".
>> >
>> >That is one of the highest quality intellectual patterns
>> >there is. And in this highest quality intellectual
>> >pattern, external objects appear historically before
>> >intellectual patterns...
>> >
>> >But this highest quality intellectual pattern itself comes
>> >before the external world, not after, as is commonly presumed by the
materialists.
>
>Prior to Pirsig whetting my interest in philosophy I'm sure my response
would
>have been: This guy is playing word games, I'm outta here. That being said
I
>think much of the source of American's aversion to philosophy stems from
>philosophic discourse such as this which seem esoteric, vague, and
muddleheaded.
Glove:
I do understand your concerns here. These little snippets of Pirsig's must
be taken in context, of course, and probably do not make much sense unless
one begins to unpeel the onion of the Metaphysics of Quality and look at its
deeper implications.
Dave:
>
>[There is an] intellectual pattern that says "there is an external world of
>things out there which are independent of intellectual patterns". [but as
>already stated "that external world of things" is still just an
intellectual
>pattern (though that external world of things is independent of
intellectual
>patterns) etc. etc.]
Glove:
This circle is easy to get locked into if time is considered as a principle
of an independently existing external reality. What I sense Pirsig is
getting at in his quotes is that the intellect level is not bounded by our
linear sense of time. Time is not a principle, rather it is a conceptual
agreement.
The concepts we focus on are agreed to be external, but the Metaphysics of
Quality states otherwise.
Dave:
>
>As a child I had a "tippy cup" with a picture of bear holding a "tippy cup"
>with a picture of a bear holding a "tippy cup." While conceptually infinite
>the reality was the limitations of sight and printing.
Glove:
Your phrase "conceptually infinite" is worth further exploration I think.
"Infinite" comes from the latin "infinitus" < in- not + finis- limit >
meaning literally "not limited". Can we use a term like "conceptually" to
describe that which is without limit? Look at the difference in the way
Pirsig uses "conceptually" in his SODV paper. He calls Dynamic Quality the
"Conceptually Unknown". Pirsig is implying that the "Unknown" is beyond
conception while you are implying "infinite" is a conception. Do you see
what I mean?
Dave:
>
>If metaphysics is a map, Why do I want one that leads me in circles?
Glove:
Why do you want one at all?
Dave:
>
>As James's squirrel goes around the tree avoiding the potentially predatory
>man it seems to possess sufficient intellect to know that this external
object
>is real enough to make him into stew.
Glove:
And so is the squirrel running in circles? The squirrel, having successfully
eluded the man, may come to sense of itself as having some greater Purpose
that has allowed it to escape the clutches of the potentially squirrel-stew
making man. Would the squirrel be wrong in assuming this? And with this
new-found sense of Purposefulness, is this squirrel still the same squirrel
as before the man-encounter?
Dave:
>
>I check your website out you have some good stuff there.
Glove:
Thank you! Any comments you might have are appreciated.
Dave:
> I followed the U.C.
>link and surfed a bit but not ready to dive into those waters yet.
Glove:
Those waters are deep and scary and full of nothingness.
Thanks for your time in writing! I'll look forward to your reply.
Best wishes,
glove
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