Hi Struan, Kev, David et al
On 22 Apr 99, at 6:03, Struan Hellier wrote:
> You can tell that I have a resigned air about me at the moment. You
> mystics may be right about Pirsig and from the lack of dissenting
> voices on this forum I wonder if others agree or whether they are
> merely apathetic. Of them I ask just one question. Has it really all
> been reduced to this?
There's been an ongoing, although intermittent, (sub)thread for ages
now about how the MOQ is predominantly mystical in it's approach.
This is plainly wrong and any unbiased reading of Lila will show that
this is the case. The MOQ is predominantly an attempt to UNITE
both mysticism and rationalism under Quality - the foundation of the
MOQ. They are two aspects of the same thing. I fail to see how this
is missed. All the prior talk of the MOQ as predominantly mystic
undermines precisely what Pirsig set out to solve. Pirsig repeatedly
states that the MOQ subscribes to empiricism and that both
rationalism and mysticism are part of this. I and many others
accepted this some time ago and explore the MOQ with this in mind.
I do not accept Kevins hypothesis that there is a fifth level beyond
Intellect as he (and others) confuse and conflate the mystic (the
vessel), mysticism (the approach) and mystic experience ( -> DQ).
So far I have seen no convincing argument from Kevin to make me
believe otherwise - and I think this is the point you (Struan) were
making about mysticism?
I would imagine that the reason many on the list have not gotten
involved in this thread is not (just) because of apathy but, as I've
stated above, the position of a balance between mysticism and
rationalism is generally accepted by most.
David is absolutely correct when he says that mysticism is central
to the MOQ, he just seems to have forgotten to add that rationalism
is equally central :)
> Struan
> Reactions are much as I expected, but I shall try just once more. Pirsig
> may just be another mystic and I may be wasting my time - that I am quite
> prepared to concede, but I am reasonably convinced that our disagreement
> here stems from the simplistic view of the intellectual level forwarded
> and from a mis-reading of what I'm saying.
It's not my opinion that Pirsig is just another mystic - if he is a
mystic at all. I think he recognizes the importance of mysticism and
the mystic experience. Mystic experience, by whatever means does
not make anyone a mystic. Mysticism has been downgraded
severely in many minds by the emergence of science but is still a
valid (means of) experience. Pirsig attempts to re-establish it's
validity with the MOQ but as a separate, not superior, means of
expression. I agree with you about the often simplistic view of the
intellectual level and the attempt by some to reduce it to merely
reason.
> Struan:
> To answer your central point that, " the MOQ is a rational definition of
> mysticism." No. The MoQ (as I see it) is a rational EXTENSION of
> mysticism. I have already affirmed that mystical insight is prior to
> rationalisation. As I wrote before, "Insight arrives at what is new and
> reason harmonises and checks that insight by relating it to other
> insights." This seems to be the central point from the quotations you
> provide.
Yin and Yang. Neither is more important or ranks higher then the
other - they are different approaches and as such deserve equal
respect. The pointless running down of one in favour of the other
serves no purpose but to re-establish the mystic/rational split which
Pirsig has tried to overcome.
Probably the source of all the argument is that when quotes are
taken out of context or not balanced with other appropriate quotes
any position is supportable. Pirsig knocks drugs AND ascribes a
wonderful experience to peyote, but seen in context, I would say that
it is drug addiction that Pirsig knocks - the domination of a higher
level (Biology/Society/Intellect) by a lower level (Inorganic).
Horse
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