RISKY ROG REPLIES REVERENTLY TO MAGNUS AND DB
Thanks for the great dialogue all. I learn every day through your friendship
and sharing.
Below are some cut'n'pastes with David and Magnus. My previous quotes are
marked "old" and , you guessed it....the new ones are marked????
[Old Rog ] If patterns are derived from DQ, how can they go to DQ?
[Magnus]I wouldn't say patterns are derived from DQ, rather created by DQ.
That is,
another thing was unpatterned enough to change to a completely new thing.
The old thing might die doing it though.
[New Rog] Pirsig says both. The derived from definition is better at
explaining sq in terms of DQ, in my opinion. It also is a lot less
"materialism-ish"
[Old Rog] DQ is the name we have given to the true Quality, and sq is the
divided illusion of quality.
[Magnus] Ouch! This sounds like DQ = matter and SQ = mind to me, or what's the
difference?
[New Rog] Not at all. You see, your "mind' and "matter' are both divided
abstractions as well. Both are abstracted out of pure experience. This is
not idealism. See Pirsig quotes below for more clarification.
NOW TO DAVID B.
[David] Magnus and Roger both ask about the map and the road, so to speak.
This
is an area of discussion that I hope we can focus on collectively. There
seems to be some pretty fundamental disagreements here and I think it
leads to many further differences of opinion.
[New Rog] Interesting that you disagree with me, but I agree with most of
your comments here????
[David] Roger says, "DQ is
undivided and preconceptual, while SQ is divided and conceptualized."
and in a similar spirit he says "DQ is the real terrain, and SQ is a
conceptualized map of reality." I think I understand what Roger is
saying here, but I think it is not correct. Instead of saying DQ is
undivided I'd say it is unpatterned Quality.
[New Rog] As with my comment to Magnus, Pirsig says it both ways, I believe.
I included his "indivisible" quote in my first post, but I would agree with
your definition too.
[David] DQ it is not only
pre-conceptual, it is beyond intellectual patterns of quality. It is
beyond concepts. DQ can not be defined or conceptualized. We can invent
analogies, like the phrase "dynamic Quality", but they only refer to the
mystery we call DQ.
[New Rog] I am with you 100% again.
[David] Static quality, on the other hand, is not just a
conceptualized map of reality - although conceptual maps of reality are
generally made of static intellectual patterns. Any kind of metaphysic
is going to be composed of ideas, but that is not the case with all
static patterns. The first three levels of static patterns can be mapped
by the intellect, but are not composed of intellectual patterns. Rocks
and trees and tribes exist regardless of our maps and ideas about them.
[ New Rog] Pirsig is not quite as confidant as you here, as I show below.
[David] It's true that these prior levels are created through Quality Events
and
are born by "experience", but that kind of experience is not to be
equated human experience. Sure, intellectual metaphysicians have
experiences, but so do rocks, trees and tribes.
[New Rog] Again, I see you as being right on target.
[David] Static quality is not
limited to just intellectual patterns, there are inorg, org and social
patterns too. Every concieveable "thing" in the universe is made of
static quality. I am conviced that our disagreements stem from a
confusion of the cosmological and epistemological issues, stem from the
failure to distinguish between physics and perception.
[Rog] Let's quote Pirsig to see what the MOQ says on the issue (from Glove's
MOQ Discuss Post last month on a Pirsig correspondence):
[Robert M. Pirsig]
"In the MOQ, experience is pure Quality which gives rise to the creation of
intellectual patterns which in turn produce a division between subjects and
objects. Among these patterns is the intellectual pattern that says "there
is an external world of things out there which are independent of
intellectual patterns." That is one of the highest quality intellectual
patterns there is. And in this highest quality intellectual pattern,
external objects appear historically before intellectual patterns.... But
this highest quality intellectual pattern itself comes before the external
world, not after, as is commonly presumed by the materialists."
[Rog] He ends by stating that things (gravity in this case) are an external
reality "IN A VERY HIGH QUALITY INTERPRETATION OF EXPERIENCE." (emphasis
added)
In summary, he is much more elegant here than I was when I wrote that the
external world is "an illusion". Instead, he calls it a high quality
intellectual pattern derived from experience. Interesting huh? Comments are
appreciated.
Roger
PS -- I liked your thoughts John, I hope to get to them tomorrow.
MOQ Online Homepage - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Unsubscribe - http://www.moq.org/md/index.html
MD Queries - horse@wasted.demon.nl
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Sat Aug 17 2002 - 16:02:58 BST