All this gives me the idea that "the next freedom" [as I stated earlier as
freedom of ideas and theories] may be a cultural freedom from language.
and don't forget to be gentle
Avid
icq 6598359
----- Original Message -----
From: Christopher Null <slavescreams_@hotmail.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Freitag, 20. August 1999 00:38
Subject: MD don't get caught up in the illusion
>
> Greetings,
>
> **********PART 1**********
>
>
> A major flaw in any metaphysical system is the limitation of
> linguistics to express the ideas which are being discussed, no matter what
> brand of metaphysics it is, whether it be the classical subject-object
> variety, or that new fangled metaphysics of quality. This limitation was
> established long ago.
>
> -A comprehended god(Quality) is no god(Quality)-
> Dio Chrysostom, Greek Sophist
>
> -The more concrete and positive in speaking about God(Quality), the
> lower the level of understanding-
> Kierkengaard
>
> -In practice we are all bewitched by words. We confuse them with the
> real world, and try to live in the real world as if it were a world of
> words-
> Alan Watts
>
> -The concept, the label, is perpetually hiding us from the nature of
> the real-
> Joseph Conrad
>
> -All things in their fundamental nature are not namable or
explicable.
> They cannot be adequately expressed in any form of language-
> Ashraghasa
>
> -He who knows does not speak; he who speaks does not know-
> Lao Tzu
>
> -My suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we
suppose,
> but queerer than we can suppose-
> J.B.S. Haldane
>
> -We are too weak to discover the truth by reason alone-
> St. Augustine
>
> -Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent-
> Wittgenstein
>
> -The limits of my language stand as the limits of my world-
> Wittgenstein
>
> -Human reasoning is burdened by questions which as prescribed by the
> very nature of reason itself, it is not able to ignore, but at the same
time
> it is also not able to answer-
> Kant
>
> -The gods love the obvious and hate the obscure-
> The Upanishads
>
> -To understand is almost the exact opposite of existing-
> Georges Poulet
>
> -Words, as it is well known, are great foes of reality-
> Joseph Conrad
>
> -Human speech is like a cracked kettle on which we tap crude rhythms
> for bears to dance to while we long to make music that will melt the
stars-
> Gustave Faubert
>
> -Whatever a man knows, whatever is not mere rumbling and roaring that
> he has heard, can be said in three words-
> Kurnberger
>
> -the no-mind not-thinks no-thoughts about no-things-
> The Buddha
>
>
> *****Pirsig himself realized this limitation on language*****
>
> -The Quality that can be defined is not the Absolute Quality-
> Zen & Art of M.M. -chapter 20
>
> -It(Quality) cannot be defined-
> Zen & Art of M.M. -chapter 20
>
> -Quality is indivisible, undefinable, and unknowable in the since
that
> there is a knower and a known... Since metaphysics is essentially a kind
of
> dialectal definition and since Quality is essentially outside definition,
> then this means a "Metaphysics of Quality" is a contradiction of terms, a
> logical absurdity-
> Lila -chapter 5
>
> *****Pirsig's justification to writing a metaphysics of Quality, though,
was
> amazingly weak*****
>
> -The only person who does not pollute the mystic reality of this
world
> with fixed metaphysics is a person who hasn't been born... The rest of us
> have to settle for something a little less pure. Getting drunk, picking
up
> bar ladies, and writing metaphysics is a part of life-
> Lila -chapter 5
>
> Allow me a slight rewrite to show my problems with this argument
>
> -The only person who does not pollute the physical reality of this
> world with excrament is a person who hasn't been born... The rest of us
> have to settle for something a little less pure. Getting drunk, picking
up
> bar ladies, and creating excessive amounts of waste is a part of life-
>
> Personally, I would not stand for it if AMCE chemical company used this
> excuse for physical pollution, nor will I stand for Pirsig's reasoning.
Zen
> and the Art of M.M. was enough, anything else is excessive and pollutive.
>
> **********PART 2**********
>
> Here is the problem...
>
> Language is a tool of society used to convey societal qualities and
values,
> just as urine and body language is used to convey biological qualities and
> values. Without a language of some form; either speech, writing, sign
> language, Morse code, a society could not exist because only language is
> complex enough to adequately convey such social concepts as government,
law,
> economics/trade, customs, ect... This wonder of language is so important
> that we even taught ourselves to think words and language. Don't be
fooled,
> though: Language is a social tool for communication and should be treated
> as such. It is no better then conveying intellectual qualities than
> smelling a Germans urine will tell you about the entirety of their social
> qualities. Language will only give you a shrouded glance of the
> intellectual qualities being presented. Words are just not suited to the
> challenge. Perhaps someday in the future, if the intellect wins it's
> ongoing fight with society, Dynamic Quality will provide us with some new
> form of communication to work with intellectual Qualities, or maybe it
> already has, I don't know, but the Metaphysics of quality, which is still
a
> logical absurdity, states that if language is a societal tool, then it
would
> be immoral to try to express the intellectual qualities with a lower form
of
> evolution, language.
>
> Don't get caught up in the illusion.
>
>
>
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