ROGER:
> Is the ocean composed of water or waves? Both answers are correct in
their
> own way. Waves are patterns that can form in myriads of mediums. My answer
is
> that Reality is formed of direct experience. Sq is the patterns or waves
> abstracted from this experience. But yes, the abstraction process is part
of
> reality too. Remember my song and my echo analogies? I guess it would be
> clearer to say that "These are often confused with THE ESSENCE of
reality."
> This was how Ant worded his original quote by the way. Good catch, sorry
for
> the confusion.
AVID:
Isn't it high time to depart from "essence of" things? Didn't the essential
attitude do enough harm? To search for purity led to Auschwitz. If all we
have is experience, why not to kiss essences their final goodbye. I don't
know what is the essence of the ocean, I don't know what is the essence of
me. Any look for an essence in my eyes is last years snow. Can't we do
without them? Your analogy of the ocean and the waves don't hold water. I
can imagine an ocean without waves, I cannot imagine a DQ without any SPQing
[conceptions, ideas, language]. Your keeping reality separate from the
experienced, is little harm and no good, to use a metaphor that suggests
that reality [itself] as an ocean is expiriencable not through SPQ is a
misleading mistake
and don't forget to be gentle
Avid
icq 6598359
----- Original Message -----
From: <RISKYBIZ9@aol.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Sonntag, 22. August 1999 03:46
Subject: Re: MD Reality & Observation
> WALTER:
> 2) DQ is Direct Experience, but it is also the Conceptually Unknown.
> As Pirsig writes in his SODV-paper:
> "I think that science generally agrees that there is something
> that has to enter into experiments other than the measuring
> instruments, and I think science would agree that "Conceptually
> Unknown" is an acceptable name for it. "
>
> How can you reconsile DQ as "the Conceptually Unknown" with
> DQ as "Direct Experience". These seem to be two different concepts?
>
> ROGER:
> This gets right to the key issue. DQ is direct preconceptual experience.
It
> is the present, which occurs before we have objectified or subjectified
this
> experience. It is the leading edge of the stream of quality events. Sq
is
> the wake. It is experience conceptualized.
>
> Remember, Quality is an event, not a thing. The Conceptually Unknown and
the
> conceptually known are two sides of the Quality Event.
>
> And by the way, it isn't me who is saying that DQ is DIRECT EXPERIENCE, it
is
> Pirsig (in numerous places), along with James (that is the central point
of
> Radical Empiricism), and the Zen philosophers (you guys absolutely must
read
> Nishida.... he makes the issues so much clearer.)
>
> Later Dude,
>
> Rog
>
> PS -- Squad.....Sorry for posting so many times today, I will be better
from
> here out.
>
>
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