RE: MD Systematic about the Sophists

From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Sun Dec 15 2002 - 21:16:32 GMT

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    Sam and all MOQers:

    In various threads we've been discussing the difference between ritualistic
    religion and mystical experience, the difference between static and Dynamic
    Quality, the distinction between the third and fourth level perspectives,
    between social and intellectual values. In spite of the fact that Zen and
    the Art preceeds many of these terms, I've returned to it with these issues
    in mind. Even though the static/Dynamic split had not yet been made, I think
    we can look at ZAMM with our MOQ glasses on. I believe this not only makes
    ZAMM more clear and specific, it also resolves some ambiguities. I hope to
    get at all these issues by focusing in on mysticism as it relates to
    Phaedrus, Plato and the Sophists. That is to say, I hope to show that they
    each had slightly different notions of the "ONE", which is called DQ in MOQ
    terms. Another very important thing that is going on with these three
    figures is the birth of the intellectual level. This is another reason to
    wear our MOQ glasses. Most of the quotes come from chapters 29 and 30, where
    Phaedrus is attending philosophy classes and is about to go mad.

    The beginning is a good place to start...

    "One must first get over the idea that the time span between the last
    caveman and the first Greek philosophers was short. The absence of any
    history for this period sometimes gives this illusion. But before the Greek
    philosophers arrived on the scene, for a period of at least five times all
    our recorded history since the Greek philosophers, there existed
    civiizations in an advanced state of development. They had villages and
    cities,..and led a life quite as rich and varied as that in most rural areas
    of the world today. And like people in those areas today they saw no reason
    to write it down, or if they did, they wrote it on materials that have never
    been found. Thus we know nothing about them." (335-6)

    This pre-historic period was a time of myths and mythic thinking, when
    ritual ruled, when the social level was not only evolving, but really
    flowering. By the time of the Sophists many advanced civilizations and great
    cities had come and gone. This third level evolution goes way, way back.
    Historically, its true, we know nothing. But by looking at the mythos,
    ancient myths, poetry and art, we can see it leading us out of the caves and
    into the light. There are very ancient rituals that actually portray this.
    It includes the lighting of a lamp or candle deep inside a completely
    darkened cave, followed by a procession out of the cave behind one who holds
    the light. The ritual procession then continues up to and through the city
    and then finally up to the temple at the top of a hill. All their choices in
    landscape and architecture was built to serve this ritual. It re-enacts
    human evolution and demonstrates humanities spiritual aspirations. The myths
    tell us a great deal about this period, a treasure chest of information,
    which is why Pirsig recommends Campbell the mythologist. In Lila, Pirsig
    takes us back into this period by way of Proto-Indo-European etymology. He
    concludes that his MOQ is really a version of "the oldest idea known to
    man"; that the physical order and the moral order are One and the same. He
    says that he sees this idea in Great religions like Hindusim, but that it
    was all smothered by clap trap and otherwise obscured from our
    consciousness. This was all made obvious to him at the peyote ceremony. This
    "oldest idea" is all but forgotten now, but in this prehistoric period signs
    of the "One" were everywhere. This is the world that shaped the Sophists,
    who were something like the height and the end of this age, the children who
    inherited the fruits of this long evolutionary period. This period is what
    shaped all the early Greeks and is still very much with us all even today.

    "Dialectic, which is the parent of logic, came itself from rhetoric.
    Rhetoric in turn is the child of the myths and poetry of ancient Greece.
    That is true historically, and by the application of common sense. The
    poetry and myths are the response of a prehistoric people to the universe
    around them made on the basis of Quality. It is Quality, not dialectic,
    which is the generator of everything we know." (ZAMM P354)

    I don't wish to get bogged down in too much detail, I just want you to
    notice what he's saying about myths here. He says they're "made on the basis
    of Quality". Since he says in the same breath that Quality "is the generator
    of everything we know", I think its safe to say that he's talking about
    Dynamic Quality. Myths are natural, not made by hands. There is an
    unconscious, organic quality to the way they are created. Just like in our
    dreams, we seem to spin out stories whether we like it or not. They're gifts
    from the Muses. Stories create people, not the other way around. This
    explains their power. They made us what we are. The Greek myths can be seen
    as the basic assumptions and worldview of the Sophists. And as Campbell
    tells us, all myths say essentially the same thing and this core message is
    also the core of the mystical vision. To paraphrase the mythologist, the
    myths tell us that all things, all forms and all beings are issued forth out
    of the ONE, that all things and beings are manifestations of, particular
    inflections of some aspect of the ONE, that all things and beings are filled
    and supported by the ONE during their period of manifestation, and that they
    then all return to that source of being.

    "Whatever nuance the language of union is given, if there is to be talk of
    mysticism, some sort of deep union must be involved. It perhaps cannot be
    emphasized enough that to speak of mysticism is to speak of an EXPERIENCE of
    union and not merely speculations about union." (Guidebook P27)

    "Plato is the essential Buddha-seeker who appears again and again in each
    generation, moving onward and upward toward the 'one'. Aristotle is the
    eternal motorcycle mechanic who prefers the "many. I myself am pretty much
    Aristotelian in this sense, preferring to find the Buddha in the quality of
    the facts around me, but Phaedrus was clearly a Platonist by temperment and
    when the classes shifted to Plato he was greatly relieved. His Quality and
    Plato's Good were so similar that if it hadn't been for some notes Phaedrus
    left I might have thought they were identical." (331-2)

    Phaedrus' Good and Plato's Good are not exactly the same. Why are they not
    identical? This is surely the most interesting question raised here and
    we'll get to it soon enough. But notice how it provides a key to the
    difference between Platonic Phaedrus and the Aristotelian narrator. We even
    see it framed in terms of finding the Buddha, either in the One or in the
    many. With our MOQ glasses on, I think we can see that the One is DQ and the
    many is static quality. And in this we can see the core mythical/mystical
    vision, that the many is a manifestation of the ONE, that all sq is created
    by DQ. Also this Platonic Buddha-seeker appears in every generation because
    static quality needs to constantly be informed, evolved and refreshed by
    Dynamic Quality in an eternal dance. Now back to that question about the
    'Good'.

    "The difference was that Plato's Good was a fixed and eternal and unmoving
    idea, whereas for the rhetoricians it was not an idea at all. The Good was
    not a form of reality. It was reality itself, ever changing, and ultimately
    unknowable in any kind of fixed, rigid way. " (P342)

    Using the MOQ's terms this difference is easily identified. Plato's Good is
    a static intellectual description. For the rhetoricians, the Good was the
    One, was dynamic reality itself. They were so close because they both were
    refering to the ONE, but Plato was trying to nail down this same Dynamic
    thing in a static way. The fact that this move also represents a shift from
    the third to the fourth level of values adds to the complexity of all this,
    but I think we can still see it.

    "Now Plato's hatred of the Sophists makes sense. He and Socrates are
    defending the Immortal Principle of the Cosmologists against what they
    consider to be the decadence of the Sophists. Truth. Knowledge. That which
    is independent of what anyone thinks about it. The ideal that Socrates died
    for. The ideal that Greece alone possesses for the first time in the history
    of the world. It is a very fragile thing. It can disappear completely. Plato
    abhors and damns the Sophists without restraint ...because they threaten
    mankind's first beginning grasp of the idea of truth. That's what it is all
    about. The results...are nothing less than the whole world of Western man as
    we know it." (P337-8)
     
    The Sophists didn't have any Immortal Principles like the Cosmologists, who
    were forever fighting about which Principle was the truely Immortal One, but
    Plato sythesized then and everything that had come before. He installed the
    Sophists' conception of arete, of the Good, as the Immortal Principle in his
    own cosmology. Plato tried to capture the One is a static intellectual
    pattern, not to kill it off, but to preserve it.

    "Plato HADN'T tried to destroy ARETE. He had ENCAPSULATED it: made a
    permanent fixed idea of of it; he had CONVERTED it to a rigid, immobile
    Immortal Truth. ... That was why the Quality Phaedrus had arrived at in the
    classroom had seemed so close to Plato's Good. Plato's Good was TAKEN from
    the rhetoricians. (P342)

    Pirsig's MOQ does the same thing - almost. He provides an intellectual
    description of Dynamic Quality, but not quite a definition. Unlike Plato, he
    insists some things can never be encapsulated in this way and admits that
    such efforts to pin it down are degenerate activities. But there's something
    about the 'Good" that attracts Phaedrus. That's what drives him. That's why
    he's so frustrated by materialism, the system, subject-object dualism and
    the Aristotelian Professors. It all defies his mystical inclination, his
    inclinations toward DQ, toward the One. He's very close to the Sophists
    because they really lived it and he's nearly identical to Plato because it
    is a philosophical mysticism. He can see the One in both.

    "Philosophical mysticism, the idea that truth is indefinable and can be
    apprehended only by non-rational means, has been with us since the beginning
    of history." (ZAMM P 207)

    "The One can only be described allegorically, through the use of analogy,
    of figures of imagination and speech." (ZAMM P349)

    When the Chairman has taken over the class and they are reading the Socratic
    dialogue titled "Phaedrus". As the Chairman speaks, he notices that a "false
    note has crept in". The tension is high and things are coming to a boil when
    he notices that "the Chairman has completely bypassed Socrates' description
    of the One and has jumped ahead" to the allegorical horses that lead us to
    the One. He's taking it too literally and insisting that this is not an
    allegory, but the "truth". Even though Plato was writing about the One
    specifically, and the Chairman was a major league dude, he was apparently
    obvilious to it. And I was oblivious to this whole dimension of Pirsig's
    work the first time I read it too. Like the Chairman, I missed it like it
    wasn't even there. Mysticism is like that. It is pretty much at this point
    that Phaedrus begins to loose his mind and he never returns to class after
    that day.

    "I want to say, in brief, that the ultimate journey taken by Phaedrus and
    described by the narrator was the MYSTICAL self, ... Mysticism is always
    associated with some sort of unitive consciousness, a consciousness
    experientially united with ultimate reality." (Guidebook P26)

    "At the moment of pure Quality, subject and object are identical" (ZAMM P25)

    I'm sure that depictions of this unitive consciousness are everywhere to be
    found in Christianity. At-one-ment. Conformed to God. Eating the flesh and
    blood of Christ. The cross as Axis mundi. Being born again. The virgin
    birth. These are all references to the union or the shift in consciousness
    that results, no? Its all about the mystical experience and the ultimate
    unitive reality that is revealed in such an experience. Its about the
    underlying unity behind apparent dualities like static and dynamic, man and
    God, the many and the One. It resolves them all, gives rise to them all.
    This radical shift in consciousness is totally alien to the Aristotelian
    view. Like a bad theology that blocks out the light, the intellectual level
    descriptions can obscure this ancient wisdom too. Its no accident that
    Aquinas was an Aristotelain. Like Phaedrus, he had a life-altering
    experience on the heels of an extented period of struggling with the
    futility of grasping after the One by way of references and portrayals, by
    way of static forms.

    "Mystical experience is the base from which one lives in fuller union with
    everything and everyone, doing what ordinary people do but with a radically
    transformed and transforming consciousness." (Guidebook P27)

    If the MOQ grew out of that peyote ceremony, then ZAMM get out of his
    original mystical experience. Sure, he was locked up and hammered in the
    head with electricity. It looked like insanity and maybe it was, but his
    description of the central events are unmistakable. Its a mystical
    experience.

    "Then even "he" disappears and only the dream of himself remains with
    himself in it. And the Quality, the arete he has fought so hard for, has
    sacrificed for, has NEVER betrayed, but in all that time has never once
    understood, now makes itself clear to him and his soul is at rest." (ZAMM
    P359)

    There is so much left unsaid and there are many unmentioned connections
    between what has been said, but this is already too long. And I wish I had
    some fancy concluding remarks, full of insights and profundities, but I
    don't. Hopefully, dear reader, you can connect the dots and see the whole
    picture. I've tried to show how the MOQ's distinction between static and
    Dynamic resolves the tension between the single-minded mystical Platonists
    and the many-minded materialist Aristotelians. I've tried to show that
    social level myths and intellectual level metaphysics can both refer to the
    ONE, that they both can portray the mystical knowledge revealed in a unitive
    experience, and that either of them can grow too static and stale and become
    oblivious to this perennial truth. As Pirsig puts it, Rta, the oldest idea,
    the "cosmic order of things" is "a deeply submerged hidden root" of all
    these static forms. That's why we started at the begining, in pre-historic
    times.

    "Long ago when he first explored the idea of Quality he'd reasoned that if
    Quality were the primordial source of all our understanding then it followed
    that the place to get the best view of it would be at the begining history
    when it would have been less cluttered by the present deluge of static
    intellectual patterns of knowledge. ... Philosophers usually present their
    ideas as sprung from 'nature' or sometime from 'God', but Phadedrus thought
    neither of these was completely accurate. The logical order of thing which
    the philosophers study is derived from the 'mythos'. The mythos is the
    social culture and the rhetoric which the culture must invent before
    philosophy becomes possible. Most of this old religious talk is nonsense, of
    course, but nonsense or not, it is the PARENT of our modern scientific talk.
    This 'mythos over logos' thesis agree with the MOQ's assertion that
    intellectual static patterns of quality are built up out of social static
    patterns of quality." (Lila P 378)

    How's that for a start?

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