From: Glenn Bradford (gmbbradford@netscape.net)
Date: Sat Jan 04 2003 - 06:49:25 GMT
Horse,
I will not honour your request to provide specific evidence here
because I've been doing this all along, and I don't think
that a dashed-out list will do my arguments justice.
You've had ample opportunity to complain about any of my past
science-related posts, but since you generally have not, I thought
your emergence from lurkerland was prompted by the word "belittle",
and so I was quick to tell you what I meant by that. You have lumped
"vilifies", "maligns", and "decry" with "belittle". These are
directionally correct but they're obviously of a different temper.
Pirsig's attitude toward science is my plank - my angle - my main
reason for being here. I've spent two years writing posts about it,
and I think it's essential to look at these attitudes square on
to have a fuller appreciation of what motivates Pirsig's
philosophical positions.
If I think that some view of Pirsig's about science is mis-guided or
calculated or hypocritical or based on ignorance, I will let you know
and tell you why I think so. You don't have to agree. I also find
entirely reasonable Pirsig's position that science is not beyond
criticism. I just don't agree, by and large, with his criticisms.
Glenn
"Horse" <horse@darkstar.uk.net> wrote:
>Hi Glenn and All
>
>I specifically asked you to provide some evidence to support your claim that Pirsig
>belittles science and you gave me quotes from Jung and made further spurious and
>incorrect claims and generalisations.
>Nor is your historical and consistent misinterpretation of Pirsigs position evidence of
>Pirsig belittling science.
>Pirsigs position is that science is not beyond criticism which, to me, is entirely
>reasonable. Criticism is necessary to the evolution and advancement of science. Or do
>you believe that those that criticise science (or the way it is practised) commit some
>heretical act.
>
>So I'll ask once again: where does Pirsig belittle, malign, cheapen, "lessen the authority,
>dignity, or reputation of", denigrate, decry, bad-mouth or vilify science.
>
>
>Horse
>
>
>
>On 3 Jan 2003 at 1:07, Glenn Bradford wrote:
>
>> Horse and all,
>> By "belittle" I mean to lessen the authority, dignity, or reputation
>> of. For example, here is something Jung wrote:
>>
>> Through scientific understanding, our world has
>> become dehumanised. Man feels himself isolated
>> in the cosmos. He is no longer involved in nature
>> and has lost his emotional participation in natural
>> events, which hitherto had a symbolic meaning for
>> him. Thunder is no longer the voice of a god, nor
>> is lightning his avenging missile. No river contains
>> a spirit, no tree makes a mans's life, no snake is
>> the embodiment of wisdom and no mountain still
>> harbours a great demon. Neither do things speak to him
>> nor can he speak to things, like stones, springs, plants
>> and animals."
>>
>> This general sentiment is felt by Pirsig and many an
>> MOQite. People here prefer animism and myths and other
>> pre-scientific ideas to science and I don't think
>> this is some fluke. Scientific intellectualism is the
>> reason for the insanity and psychic loneliness of the 20th
>> century, remember? And the Church of Reason. Isn't that a
>> bit of a come down? Read my past posts if you want more
>> evidence. I've written plenty about it, from his take on the
>> scientific method to his view on zoology and many points in
>> between.
>> Glenn
>>
>> "Horse" <horse@darkstar.uk.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Hi All
>> >
>> >On 2 Jan 2003 at 0:06, Glenn Bradford wrote:
>> >
>> >> Actually, the Jungians (and Pirsig) are quite ambivalent and
>> >> in some ways hypocritical in their attitudes toward science. No
>> >> sooner do they belittle science than they ask for its expansion
>> >> so that their dearest ideas can be admitted as such.
>> >>
>> >
>> >You seem to have a real problem with Pirsig and science. Why don't you provide some
>> >evidence to show how and where Pirsig belittles science.
>> >
>> >Horse
__________________________________________________________________
The NEW Netscape 7.0 browser is now available. Upgrade now! http://channels.netscape.com/ns/browsers/download.jsp
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Sat Jan 04 2003 - 06:50:02 GMT