RE: MD The individual in the MOQ

From: Paul Turner (paul@turnerbc.co.uk)
Date: Fri Aug 06 2004 - 14:38:02 BST

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    Hi Platt

    > Paul previously said:
    > Quality *is* perception in LILA as it was in ZMM.

    Platt said:
    If Quality is perception and Quality is reality, then perception is
    reality. Either my logic is bad or this is old fashioned Berkeley
    idealism.

    Paul:
    It's empiricism.

    Paul previously said:
    > The bit that people
    > struggle with is that the MOQ denies that there must be a perceiver
    and a
    > perceived that can be said to exist separately prior to perception. In
    > LILA, this "conceptually unknown" cutting edge of reality becomes
    Dynamic
    > Quality and the perceiver and perceived are created, by perception, in
    the
    > form of static patterns.

    Platt said:
    It's no mystery why people struggle with the idea that perception
    requires
    no pre-existing perceiver or perceived. It violates the meaning of
    perception.

    Paul:
    It only violates the meaning that perception is given within a
    subject-object metaphysical framework. I thought this was made clear in
    ZMM and LILA.

    Platt said:
    It's also baffling when one realizes that Pirsig's perceptions were the
    basis for his metaphysics that denies the prerequisite of human
    perceptions.

    Paul:
    It doesn't deny perception. It denies a subject perceiving an object as
    the starting point of reality.

    Platt said:
    Further, Pirsig says we can never know ultimate reality (the
    conceptually unknown). But that's saying we know something about it.

    Paul:
    We can't know it *intellectually* but we can intellectually accept that
    it exists nonetheless and work from there. We *can* know it by
    experience, given that it *is* experience. Again, I thought this was
    made clear in ZMM and LILA.

    Paul

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