From: Joseph Maurer (jhmau@sbcglobal.net)
Date: Mon Aug 09 2004 - 20:04:37 BST
On 7 August 2004 3:48 AM David writes:
Joe:
"God is an extension of social order value."
David:
-that's the old god, long live the new god....
Read Don Cupitt's 'After God' if you want to know more.
His Heideggger-ish book called 'The Religion Of Being'
is also very good
Hi David:
joe: IMO Dq is an evolutionary value in four orders. IMO God is experienced
within the evolution of the social order, existence. I mystically perceive
gravity-inorganic, purpose-organic, existence-social-god, unfinished
s/o-intellectual. I am concerned if I make no distinction between mystical
and mechanical experience.
IMO given evolution, I do not know all the orders of existence in the
universe. The intellectual order using dq intellectual value within
evolution cannot categorize all the orders of existence, only the orders of
existence in evolution from the inorganic. An intellectual experience of a
god outside evolution is not possible. That does not mean that I can not
experience the existence of god in the mystical experience of the social
order.
I have not read Don Cupitt. He sounds interesting.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Morey" <us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 3:46 PM
Subject: Re: MD the metaphysics of free-enterprise
> "God is an extension of social order value."
>
> -that's the old god, long live the new god....
> Read Don Cupitt's 'After God' if you want to know more.
> His Heideggger-ish book called 'The Religion Of Being'
> is also very good.
>
> DM
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joseph Maurer" <jhmau@sbcglobal.net>
> To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2004 5:30 PM
> Subject: Re: MD the metaphysics of free-enterprise
>
>
> > On 31 July 2004 5:13 PM Johnny writes to David:
> >
> > Johnny:
> >
> > You see, I don't think that mere contemplation and study, whether
written
> in
> > language or illustrated or mimed, or just daydreamed about, makes a new
> > level above social patterns. I know that everyone here will say that I'm
> > wrong about this, and I don't deny that thinking and pursuing and
> developing
> > a field of thought is an intellectual activity, but I think that's not
the
> > same thing as being a fourth level pattern.
> >
> > I arrive at this awkward position because I am trying to make the
> > relationship of each level to the ones above and below the same kind of
> > relationship.
> >
> >
> > Hi Johnny, David and all,
> >
> > joe: my view of MOQ evolution.
> >
> > Bo Skutvik tried to describe an intellectual pattern. It was difficult
> > inasmuch as the inorganic, organic, or social patterns were not
described
> in
> > differentiated-pattern terms. It is enough to say that everyone knows
what
> I
> > mean when I talk about the different levels. I focus on the mystical
> > experience of DQ! I get into deeper water!
> >
> > I go back to Pirsig's feeling of degeneracy when he made the division
> > between DQ and SQ. I say there is a mystical experience of DQ and a
> > degenerate mystical experience of a pattern of DQ. The pattern is SQ.
> >
> > I want to talk about Newton's creation of the law of gravity. Was Newton
> > latching the dq of the inorganic order by an sq law of gravity? Is
gravity
> > experienced mystically by a baby, and by all?
> >
> > An organic, seeking food, has a purpose for action beyond gravity. The
> > organic order 'purpose' does not seem to be the gravity of the inorganic
> > order. Is 'purpose' an organic order pattern? 'Purpose' attracts
> arguments.
> > What purpose? Whose purpose? Life is anti-gravity. Is organic dq value
> > correctly interpreted as mystically experienced purpose? Memories of
> > Tennyson, and What Is So Rare as a Day in June.
> >
> > The social order is a beginning for morality, three levels of activity,
> > three values of dq to discriminate. Positive and negative cancel out
> > producing neutral. Father, Mother, child, three? Morality! Existence!
How
> a
> > pattern exists will determine its place. A mystical connection to
> existence
> > is necessary to determine order. IMO the social order begins a morality
of
> > three? Existence is experienced mystically. Like purpose and gravity it
is
> > never experienced outside a pattern. Is the mystical experience of
> existence
> > subjective experience? No! Subjective experience is a pattern sq. A
> pattern
> > experienced by the individual is created by value. Existence is part of
> that
> > value. Is the mystical experience of existence truth? Existence as a
value
> > is indiscriminate. All things are possible. Truth is the value of order
in
> > an individual pattern, not the value of order itself. Freedom!
> >
> > Pirsig found a one-word metaphysics of 'quality' too limiting. Is there
no
> > other mystical experience outside of gravity, purpose, and existence?
> Bodvar
> > Skutvik suggested s/o is a mystical experience of an intellectual order
> > pattern. I add 'unfinished', 'outside of existence', as another element
to
> > the mystical experience of s/o. That is a huge tangle, 'unfinished s/o',
> to
> > be mystical experience. Can all intellectual patterns be described as sq
> > unfinished s/o? What about mathematics? What about coherence? What about
> > law? Subjective, objective does not describe intellectual patterns. The
> MOQ
> > is very specific about that!
> >
> > IMO the activity created by an 'unfinished s/o' pattern is both inside
> > gravity, purpose and existence and outside of them? Is this the basis
for
> > the intellectual order? If it is then the intellectual might be said to
be
> > out of gravity, purpose and existence. The urge of unfinished in
> > intellectual mystical experience is dogmatized into a religion in the
> order
> > of existence by the intellectual order. Story-telling, faith,
> salesmanship,
> > creativity, the groove and many other activities embody this unfinished
> s/o
> > pattern!
> >
> > I mystically distinguish dq value in four orders. IMO dq is not
existence
> > outside these orders. Existence identifies the social order value. Dq in
> the
> > inorganic, the organic, the social, and the intellectual order are
values
> in
> > those orders not a pool existing apart to be drawn from. IMO the
existence
> > of dq and the existence of God are not in the same order. Dq is an
> > evolutionary value, God is an extension of social order value.
> >
> > Mystical experience is not degenerate-mystical quality. The intellectual
> > order, though creative, is immoral when it denies mystical experience.
> > According to the moq intellectual is at the top of the moral order. IMO
an
> > intellectual pattern forms out of mystical experience. In one sense I
> create
> > myself. I am never finished, and the 'unfinished' aspect of s/o always
> looks
> > to mystical experience for verification. Intersubjective agreement! As a
> > sentient I am an inorganic, organic, social, intellectual being. As an
> > intellectual pattern, I have work to do.
> >
> > More thoughts! IMO evolution is from the inorganic order. Each order
> evolves
> > organic, social, and intellectual patterns in response to dq. Each order
> > latches dq from the one below. IMO only from the order of existence can
> > unfinished s/o evolve. Does this description of patterns help examine
the
> > relationships of each level to the ones above and below?
> >
> > I am unable to remember a published source for my formulation of these
> > patterns. I hope they are in the spirit of Robert Pirsig, Joseph
Campbell,
> > and George Gurdjieff. As I reread this I am struck by the proofs for
God's
> > existence from Aquinas. The unmoved mover, the supreme goal, the order
of
> > existence, the creator the uncaused cause. Either I have been horribly
> > prejudiced by my education, or mystical DQ has been observed, and used
> well
> > or ill by many thinkers.
> >
> > Self-awareness, individuality, is another question.
> >
> > Joe Maurer
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
> > Mail Archives:
> > Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
> > Nov '02 Onward -
> http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
> > MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
> >
> > To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
> > http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
> >
>
>
>
> MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
> Mail Archives:
> Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
> Nov '02 Onward -
http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
> MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
>
> To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
> http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
>
>
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Mon Aug 09 2004 - 21:31:07 BST