From: Scott Roberts (jse885@earthlink.net)
Date: Tue Aug 10 2004 - 04:43:20 BST
Johnny,
(I've changed the subject line, since I don't see that this has much to do
with free enterprise)
Basically, I agree, but point out that what you are doing here is shifting
the meaning of "material". I agree that this is a good shift to make, but
one has to acknowledge that one is shifting the meaning.
Earlier, I would say in Descartes time, "matter" meant that which we could
perceive with our senses and -- with one caveat -- that is the meaning you
are using. But with the progression of physics, it came to mean that which
is, or is built out of, whatever the smallest things that physics knows
about, currently electrons, protons, etc., which are not sense-perceptible.
But when someone calls himself a materialist, that typically is what they
mean.
If we shift back to the earlier meaning, and then take into account what
Kant says about it, then we have your (and my) meaning, as long as we bear
in mind the distinction: matter is our perception, not that which (we
believe) causes that perception (Kant's thing-in-itself). Now I disagree
with Kant about not being able to know the thing-in-itself, and I think you
might also, when you say "while things are not being experienced, they
don't actually exist, only the pattern does", and we can to some extent
know those patterns. How well we can know them is a big question, but I
like to think that the mathematical description of subatomic patterns is on
its way -- at a minimum it tells us how matter will appear in such-and-such
a situation. More generally, I think we can consider any conceptual
understanding as being possibly a connection to the unperceived world,
though we can certainly have erroneous conceptions.
On the distinction between "exist non-materially" and "exist materially" I
would say that the unperceived exists eternally, in that I take space and
time to be part of existing materially. So sense perception turns the
eternal into the material. Of course, in eternity they have to have the
potential to exist materially (spatio-temporally), which requires some
structure. Again, I see quantum physics as the beginning of the exploration
of eternity (aka, non-locality), though of course it is, and perhaps will
always be, restricted to studying the map from eternity to spacetime and
not eternity itself.
It is also a gray area on whether the chicken can be said to experience
material existence. It has eyes, after all, but of course we can't know how
similar its experience is to ours, if it is at all.
(There is a problem with the word "exist", though. Since it etymologically
comes from "stand out", in that sense it should be restricted to material
existence. But we need some word for "we have to take it into account". The
word :"real" would serve, though etymologically ('res', that is, 'thing')
it also refers to material things -- I think that thingness is a part of
material existence but not eternal. Oh well.)
- Scott
> [Original Message]
> I'd say the pattern of value that is the chicken exists non-materially,
and
> only when the pattern is experienced does it materialize. But while it
> isn't materialized, it is still doing things that a pattern of a chicken
> does, we still expect it to be sitting there when we go back to the coop,
> hopefully with an egg. But it isn't doing them materially, unless we put
a
> video camera on it, then it will still sit there materially, because we
> fully expect it to (or at least it will seem to have sat there, actually,
> the image on the video tape is created when we watch it).
>
> Mystical experiences are also patterns of value that converge in our
> consciousness.
>
> A pattern of value exists in Moarlity, which is also Reality, so it is
just
> like existence in SOM, except that while things are not being
experienced,
> they don't actually exist, only the pattern does, the expectation that it
> will exist and everything will make sense.
>
> Johnny
>
> >From: "Scott Roberts" <jse885@earthlink.net>
> >Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
> >To: moq_discuss@moq.org
> >Subject: Re: [Spam] Re: MD the metaphysics of free enterprise
> >Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 12:35:13 -0600
> >
> >Johnny,
> >
> >You may have addressed this in the past, so apologies if so.
> >
> >Would you consider the chicken as existing when it lays an egg (and no
> >human is looking) on the grounds that it is experiencing? Such experience
> >does not need to be subject/object -- or does it, that is, do you
consider
> >experience to only be in subject/object form? (If so, what do you
consider
> >mystical experience, claimed to not be in subject/object form?)
> >
> >I suppose I should first ask if you see a difference between "exist" and
> >"exist materially", and if so, what would you consider non-material
> >existence.
> >
> >Just want to clarify. I think I am in partial agreement with what you
say,
> >but maybe not.
> >
> >- Scott
> >
> >
> > > [Original Message]
> > > From: johnny moral <johnnymoral@hotmail.com>
> > > To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> > > Date: 8/9/2004 1:21:44 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Spam] Re: MD the metaphysics of free enterprise
> > >
> > > "Once I believe it's water, I'm glad what goes down my throat isn't
just
> >a
> > > belief. Beliefs, expectations, observations, or words won't quench my
> > > thirst, or feed the starving masses."
> > >
> > > Faith in Jesus's fishes and loaves fed the starving masses. That
sort
> >of
> > > faith isn't something that happens everyday though, most people aren't
> > > beleved to be messiahs capable of miracles. Regarding your thirst, do
> > > patterns of value quench it? If so, what is it you believe a pattern
of
> > > value to be? I didn't realize they were water-based.
> > >
> > > "Anyway, nobody believes chickens lay eggs only when someone is
> >looking."
> > >
> > > That's the point. That's why they seem to have laid eggs when no one
> >was
> > > looking. In fact (no, not in fact, but philosophically speaking),
while
> >no
> > > one was looking, the chickens didn't even exist materially. To exist,
> > > something has to be experienced, the experience (quality) creates the
> > > observer and the observed. Their existence during the time between
> > > experiences is filled in by our beliefs, which are also dictated to
us
> >by
> > > quality and experience. The primary belief we have is SOM, that
> >chickens
> > > really exist when we aren't looking.
> > >
> > > Johnny
> > >
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