From: Chuck Roghair (ctr@pacificpartssales.com)
Date: Fri Aug 20 2004 - 21:50:07 BST
David:
Please, if you're going to accuse me of "entirely losing sight with
reality," back it up with at least one example.
My conception of God is that he is man-made. A product of mythology, a
relic left-over from history, an excuse to bomb abortion clinics and fly
airplanes into buildings. "God" is "liberty" and "freedom" and "the
American Way" and "Jihad." Just and empty word that people have been
brainwashed into feeling some passion for, unfortunately, enough passion to
kill and be killed over and over again.
I'm working within the natural universe here. I see no reason to look
beyond that reality to a supernatural, omnipotent, infallible, omnipresent,
ultimately benevolent creator fully equipped with x-ray vision and laser
beams mounted on his head to answer to life's questions. Common sense
demands that God doesn't exist. You've certainly provided no evidence to
the contrary.
One could make a far more cohesive, sound argument for the existence of
Santa Clause. A lot like God actually: both incredibly old dudes with long
white beards and questionable fashion; each keeps a running list of the
naughty and nice to be assigned Hell-fire and lumps of coal, or Heaven and
colorful plastic noisy landfill in an orgy of consumerism come judgment day,
respectively. They're surrounded by flying reindeer, harp-strumming angels
and toy-making elf-midgets; sometimes, I forget who is whom.
At least come December I can go over to the local mall and shake Santa's
hand, though.
Best regards,
Chuck
A good traveler has no fixed plans and is not intent upon arriving. A good
artist lets his intuition lead him wherever it wants.
-Lao Zi
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk [mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]
On Behalf Of David Morey
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 11:42 AM
To: moq_discuss@moq.org
Subject: Re: MD MOQ and The Problem Of Evil
Hi Chuck
I think this conception of god is completely off track.
You have an abstract and clearly wrong conception of god and try to
square it with reality and then condemn such an abstract god.
For me you are entirely losing sight of reality and the difficulties
and necessities so clearly involved in the reality we share.
So your conception is wrong. Why not start with understanding
reality and then work your way to what the ultimate category
called god may be like. I suggest the MOQ as a good approach
to reality. Reality is full of SQ. What is SQ, it is repetition. SQ
makes reality possible, it is the bases of thingness but also selfness.
SQ is the exact opposite of divinity, it is repetition, it is limitation,
it is lack of choice, it is non-openness, and the Same again.
SQ tends towards eternal recurrence. Could a divinity intervene,
maybe it could, but to do so would be to tear up the basis of this reality,
to go back on earlier decisions, e.g. to go for carbon based life
forms, matter and not anti-matter, etc. Our god is really a god of DQ
that leaves SQ in its wake. Being a certain sort of god DQ creates SQ
by sticking to its decisions/commitments, pretty god-like. So rocks
keep crushing things in the way rocks were always meant to. And
radiation messes up genes because radiation keeps on being radiation.
Our god is at least consistent. Decisions are made and stuck to.
But far from being boring our god just can't help pouring forth with her
creativity, embellishing reality with more and more impressive SQ.
Sit back and enjoy, the real mccoy.......
regards
David M
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Roghair" <ctr@pacificpartssales.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 7:46 PM
Subject: RE: MD MOQ and The Problem Of Evil
> Mel, All:
>
> Consider a baby born in the 19th century with Down Syndrome. Babies with
> Down Syndrome are sometimes born with intestinal blockages. Said
blockages
> are easily cleared today via a simple operation.
>
> In the 19th century, the Down syndrome baby dies an excruciating death
over
> a period of several days from dehydration and infection.
>
> What perfect creator creates this? For what purpose?
>
> Back to the Down Syndrome baby with intestinal blockage: her birthday is
> today. There is a surgeon nearby with the aptitude and facilities to ease
> the baby's suffering and allow her a long-term relatively happy life.
> Imagine he refuses to operate for no apparent reason. He simply isn't in
> the mood. Virtually everyone would agree he's a cretin, morally
> reprehensible. He could easily save the baby's life with little effort at
> little cost to anyone, he simply doesn't feel like it.
>
> That's God.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Chuck
>
>
> A good traveler has no fixed plans and is not intent upon arriving. A good
> artist lets his intuition lead him wherever it wants.
> -Lao Zi
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk [mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]
> On Behalf Of ml
> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 8:59 AM
> To: moq_discuss@moq.org
> Subject: Re: MD MOQ and The Problem Of Evil
>
> MSH and Johnny:
> (interleaved)
>
> msh:
> > It's not death that is the problem. It's suffering. A benevolent,
> > omnipotent, omniscient god could keep the laws of gravity in place,
> > let the rock fall and the child die swiftly and painlessly.
>
> mel:
> Why do you assume that a swift painless death is a superior one?
> We may fear pain, but can you be sure there is no possibility of
> something to be gained from the experience of it?
>
> msh:
> > The POE occurs when the rock falls and crushes the child's
> > legs and spine, so that she lies there in agony for hours till
> > comes the wolf to finish her off.
>
> mel:
> Severe traumatic injury typically involves little actual pain, but
> rather an intriguing wierdness or inappropriateness, it is the
> recovery from injury that is painful. My own shoulder dislocations,
> broken bones, snapped tendons and ligaments, when I actually
> "reached into" the experience and FELT what was there were
> both odd and interesting. It was the mind's insistence on what
> my body SHOULD be that was the cause of any horror or pain.
> I cause my perception of suffering, my nervous system simply
> relayed the sensation. The sensations were not pleasant,
> compared to eating chocolate or having sex, but the aespect
> called suffering came from the mind, before I realized I could
> reach past that 'illusion' in that experience,
> (those experiences).
>
> Upon reflection, the POE is our attempt to project upon the
> infinite our preferences for how things from our limited capacity
> ought to be. That is simple absurdity, regardless of the
> rigorousness of formulation or the structure of the argument.
> (Deciding that the world was flat is the same type of projection,
> except in West Texas - where it REALLY is.)
>
> As for the wolf, it is grateful to eat.
>
> msh:
> > Trust me. It's the knock-out punch.
>
> mel:
> Since we are only shadow boxing, there is no knock-out punch
> beyond the fantasy of our own ego.
>
> thanks--mel
>
> >
>
>
>
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