From: Adam Watt (adamwatt@mac.com)
Date: Mon Aug 23 2004 - 21:46:55 BST
Apologies if I seem rude, I felt compelled to interrupt whilst reading
this one..
On Monday, August 23, 2004, at 08:46 pm, hampday@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> Ham Priday to Paul Turner
> Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004
> Subject: RE: MD The individual in the MOQ
>
> Paul, as you appear to be the Keeper of the Faith around here, I'm
> assuming
> that your question (which I'll get to in a moment) is not simply a
> rhetorical one.
>
>> Ham said:
>> Paul's statement clearly places mind outside the realm of matter
>> (physical reality), giving it a valuistic basis. Correct me if I'm
>> wrong, Paul, but are you not saying that this "grounding in value" is
>> common to both "mind" and "physical reality"?
>>
>> Paul:
>> Yes.
>
>> Ham said:
>> It's only conjecture on my part, of course, but I think Pirsig "wants"
>> to posit an "esthetic" reality but is afraid to do so ...
>> He has stopped short of providing us with the logical
>> conclusion to his theory. His Quality -- even as a "dynamic system"--
>> doesn't measure up to the Absolute Source we're looking for. And you
>> folks are all left hanging.
>
>> Paul:
>> Put the gloves down and pick up your reading glasses:
>> "He was no longer talking about a metaphysical trinity but an absolute
>> monism. Quality was the source and substance of everything." [ZMM,
>> Ch20]
>> Are you suggesting that Pirsig needs to postulate another source of
>> the
>> source of everything?
>
> Yes.
> If Pirsig is saying that Quality is the source of everything, and
> everything
> is Quality, then he is positing a tautology; i.e., Quality is the
> source of
> itself. Not only is this logically invalid, but the word "quality" is
> commonly understood to mean an attribute or "peculiar nature of
> something",
> hence is a most "peculiar" term for an absolute monism. Are we to
> accept
> the idea that man (whose essence is Quality) is judging and acting
> upon a
> reality that is his own essence? If so, we are discussing a
> philosophy that
> is based on the purest form of solipsism. And I don't think this is
> what
> the author had in mind. Reality is much too complex and purposeful in
> design not to have an architect.
>
> So, at your suggestion, I picked up my glasses and read what Pirsig
> had to
> say about Value as a creative source:
>
>> "Matter is not just a name for certain inorganic value patterns.
> Biological patterns, social patterns, and intellectual
>> patterns are support by this pattern of matter but are independent of
>> it.
> They have rules and laws of their own that are > not derivable from the
> rules or laws of substance. ... What, after all, is the likelihood
> that an
> atom possesses within its
>> own structure enough information to build the city of New York?
> Biological and social and intellectual patterns are
>> not the possession of substance. The laws that create and destroy
>> these
> patterns are not the laws of electrons and
>> protons and other elementary particles. The forces that create and
> destroy these patterns are the forces of value."
>> LILA 12.
>
> The author then goes on in the next chapter to anthropomorphise his
> Value as
> a devouring "Giant":
>
>> "From a Metaphysics of Quality's point of view this devouring of human
> bodies is a moral activity because it's more
>> moral for a social pattern to devour a biological pattern than for a
> biological pattern to devour a social pattern.
>> A social pattern is a higher form of evolution. This city, in its
>> endless
> devouring of human bodies, was creating
>> something better than any biological organism could by itself
>> achieve."
>
> Something better?
> This could have come right out of Nietzsche's "Man and Superman"! Of
> course
> the atom did not build New York -- man did. But Pirsig would have us
> believe that the edifices of man are the work of an insentient power.
> This
> Giant, this moral force, this Value that Pirsig says contains man and
> has
> named as the architect of reality is beyond the reach of man, because
> the
> author has "partitioned" him off through a self-serving heirarchy of
> levels.
Hello Ham, interesting post, I haven't had time to read as much as the
recent discussions as I'd like would so far, but would you be so kind
as to explain why you think man is 'partitioned' off in this way? I'm
not clear on why you think the MOQs Levels have this effect?
> If this accurately describes the "cosmic plan" of Pirsig's MOQ, it
> is a depressing and conflicting teleology indeed, and one that might
> well
> make us wish we were back in the dual world of subject-object
> empiricism.
>
> A "benevolent god" may be an old-fashioned nostrum and no longer
> worthy of
> consideration in our intellectually enlightened age. It at least had
> meaning. Pardon me if it seems idealistic, but I see Value as
> relating to
> something more esthetic and cosmically meaningful for mankind than this
> mechanistic evolutionary scheme.
Bearing in mind that '"The tests of truth are logical consistency,
agreement with experience, and economy of explanation." could you
also possibly elaborate slightly on what you think that is?
Many thanks
Adam
>>
> (And, if the truth be told, I think you
> all do, too.)
>
> Essentially yours,
> Ham
>
>
>
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