From: Scott Roberts (jse885@earthlink.net)
Date: Fri Sep 03 2004 - 23:45:11 BST
Mel,
> It seems to me however, to be backwards.
> Remembering order, recognizing pattern,
> movement, and change give us the illusion
> of a time flow as an abtraction, hence a
> dimension of length and eventually a notion
> of eternity...
I don't regard time's flow as an illusion. Time is as necessary for
eternity as eternity is for time. (Coleridge uses the word 'polarity' for
this kind of relationship: two concepts which define each other as they
contradict each other. Hence one should think of time and eternity as one
thing, which we can't help but describe as two. In my opinion, DQ and SQ
are another such polarity.)
So remembering order, recognizing pattern, etc, *is* time's flow. As
analogy, or perhaps as example, when one starts a sentence to express an
idea, one doesn't know (at least not always) how the sentence will end. The
idea, then, doesn't fully exist until the sentence has been completed, or
perhaps one can say that the idea exists potentially, but not actually,
until it is expressed. Eternity, then, needs spacetime (or some order) to
express itself.
>
> a succession of instants is an abstraction invented out
> of a created scale of relative movement. (i.e. atomic clock)
That's why I hedged after mentioning it. However, if the tendency in
quantum mechanics of treating physical reality at the Planck Limit as
discrete bears out, it may not be inaccurate to speak of a succession of
instants. Perhaps an oscillation into and out of existence. I don't know.
>
> A system of systems, a complex entity, need only store
> pattern, movement, and change ordinally of enough
> 'entities or events' and the 'flow' becomes apparent
> as a perceptual model.
What perceives it? That has to be continuous. I'm not concerned with how
things get smooth. I'm concerned with how any perception happens at all.
- Scott
P.S. I think we are talking past each other. It's still interesting, though.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott Roberts" <jse885@earthlink.net>
> To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 6:04 PM
> Subject: Re: MD MOQ and Logic/Science
>
>
> > Mel,
> >
> > > I am afraid that I do not see how an independent
> > > notion of time (apart from relative movement) is required.
> > > If it is I need to understand it.
> >
> > One doesn't need an independent notion of time apart from relative
> > movement. What one needs is a notion of eternity so that one can speak
of
> > movement being observed, that can capture the succession of instants as
a
> > movement of a continuing thing, or, alternatively, that denies that
there
> > is any succession of instants in the first place. What I am getting at
is
> > that if one assumes separated things and events (which we call
spacetime)
> > as the basis of reality then one cannot have mind. So, I argue, the
> > separation into things and events (the creation of spacetime) is the
> > product of perception, that perception turns an eternal whatever (e.g.
the
> > quantum universe) into a spatio-temporal organization.
> >
> > - Scott
> >
> >
> >
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