From: David Morey (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Mon Sep 06 2004 - 20:08:32 BST
so thoughts from UK on this:
http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2004/08/17/the-bad-or-the-terrible/
DM
----- Original Message -----
From: "ml" <mbtlehn@ix.netcom.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2004 11:02 PM
Subject: Re: MD Political Correctness
> Hello David,
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Buchanan" <DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org>
> To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2004 2:26 PM
> Subject: RE: MD Political Correctness
>
>
> <snip>> mel replied:
> > Ah there's nothing like the rhetoric of two groups of Liberals in an
> > argument, the Classical Liberals in the White House and the Progressive
> > Liberals on the outside.
> >
> > dmb says:
> > The "rhetoric of two groups of Liberals"? Hmmm. I get the distinct
> > impression that you're trying to minimize the importance of the issue
and
> > undermine the distinction between the two sides in the debate. Why would
> you
> > want to do that?
>
> mel:
> David, it is often the case that the bitterest
> disagreements are between those who are
> the most alike. Great energy is often spent
> convincing themselves and each other that
> they are NOT alike.
>
> I see in this "conflict" the dynamic of a
> disagreement that is between two nearly
> identical groups. In actual governance the
> President will act substantially the same in
> 90+% of issues and only small REAL departure
> is seen.
>
> Both parties still exist because they are
> multi-cultural far more than they will ever admit.
> Any new idea is greeted by at least skepticism
> and at most with rejection, until - here's the
> important part, significant support gathers around
> the idea. Then the mechanism is to coöpt the
> idea/issue/practice/stance...etc. as their own.
>
> The good party folk will never remember opposing
> the idea they 'originated', no matter how many
> writings exist to the contrary or from whence they
> stole it in the first place.
>
> So, to you their differences seem great, to me it
> would serve the accuracy of the debate were we
> to expand the scope and look at what SHOULD
> be considered, rather than just agreeing with the
> 98%-status quo.
>
> dmb says:
> > As I understand it, the two sides involved are more
> > properly described as multiculturalists and the bigots who oppose them
AND
> > that the struggle against prejudice, wherever is rears its ugly head, is
> no
> > small thing. When the PC wars are seen in that light, your attempts to
> > trivialize the conflict are, to put it politely, unhelpful.
>
> mel:
> If I may substitute intollerance for bigotry or
> specify intollerant as the definition for bigoted,
> then as far as the behavior of both "sides" of
> the debates, I see both as reasonable and
> wise when discussing any issue among a
> like-minded group, in their actions, but both
> are nearly complete bigots when judged by
> their rhetoric as regards ANY challenge to their
> pet world view...
>
> So, tell me again just who is being unhelpful
> here, is it myself for pointing out the clothing
> worn by both "would be" emperors or is it the
> behavior of their partisans and themselves?
> Remember they are 98% the same...
>
> dmb says:
> > I'm guessing you're not American because there has been no shortage of
> angry
> > shouting and screaming. The phrase "politically correct" has been
uttered
> > with contempt a hundred thousand times as a preface to the expression of
> > some bigoted thought or attitude on talk radio, for example. And so I
> think
> > its wildly inaccurate to refer to these hateful people as classical
> > liberals. In contemporary American english, they are anti-liberal, they
> mock
> > liberalism and its concerns, as you seem to be doing with your
dismissive
> > comments.
>
> mel:
> Angry people DO tend to sound hateful and the
> only thing worse than the 'other' side telling
> lies about yours is when your own side lies and
> gives you no chance to give input...that's politics.
>
> Part of the dynamic is that you get to see the general
> Classical Liberalism in part hijacked by those who
> practice Christerism. (not Christianity)
>
> Christerism is a highly non-Christian philosophy
> that masquerades as religious based belief, but
> pushes its own agenda of hateful, intollerance,
> ignorance, Social Control, prohibition writ large and
> finds imaginary scriptural support to justify it.
>
> The first rule of practical politics is to find support
> however you can. You bend over and spread'em
> for anyone with a significant voting block if you
> want to truly get your candidate IN POWER. So,
> it is a marriage of convenience.
>
> In historical terms it will be short term...but it's
> here now.
>
> Just a simple example and one that we are largely
> left ignorant of by the mediabating or newsturbating
> political experts on TV or in print is the very simple
> defference between the Classical Liberal and the
> Classical Conservative.
>
> America IS a liberal country through and through but
> the term CONSERVATIVE is so well loved that one
> group of Liberals has disingenuously adopted or
> tried to steal it outright and the other group agreed
> somewhere along the way to complicity in the thievery.
>
>
>
>
> dmb says:
> >
> > Is that what this is really about? Are you a conservative who is bugged
by
> > the idea that PC bashers are worse than PC itself? If not, what's your
> > point?
>
> mel:
> My point is that the political dialog is SO completely
> narrow that I even had to explain this in the first place.
> (Not that I mind doing so with MoQ.org, but where are
> the POLITICAL EXPERTS in this whole thing? I am
> guessing there really are precious few to whom a
> microphone would be entrusted...the media has indeed
> let us down.)
>
> Everyone would be well served by a broader dialog.
>
> dmb says:
> >
> > Take it back,
> > unmake this bed.
> > So I won't think,
> > you're a ditto-head. :-)
>
> is this a doggerel challenge?
>
> I shaved with Occam's razor
> it's how I lost my head
> good thing the gourd was empty
> elsewise I would be dead :-)
>
> ------------------------
> by the way...
> A ditto head is just 'nother Liburl followin'
> a modern day faux-Will Rogers schtick...
>
> Look at Will Rogers writings and they
> are still 90% accurate today...
>
> The only remnant of Classical Conservatism
> seems locked in a padded cell in the back
> basement of the Libertarian Party
>
> thanks--mel
>
> "It takes a pretty small mind to not be able to
> conceive of more than one way to spell a word."
> Mark Twain
>
>
>
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