Re: MD On Faith - Improbability ?

From: Robert Eckert (rgeckert@yahoo.com)
Date: Sat Oct 09 2004 - 21:32:06 BST

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    Scott, Ian, list,
     
    Not that this will help.
     
    I am reminded of a couple passages from ZMM:
     
    p.221 "He'd been speculating about the relationship of Quality to mind and matter and had identified Quality as the parent of mind and matter, that event which gives birth to mind and matter."
     
    p.338 "Man is not the source of all things, as the subjective idealists would say. Nor is he the passive observer of all things, as the objective idealist and materialist would say. The Quality which creates the world emerges as a relationship between man and his experience."

     
    Quality is the basis in which the spacio-temporal world and consciousness come to be. That is, Quality is the synthesizing element forming the relationship which results in consciousness emerging from matter.
     
     
     
    Robert Eckert
     
    "Faith requires us to be materialists without flinching"
     - Peirce (1.354)

    Scott Roberts <jse885@earthlink.net> wrote:

    Ian,
    [cut]

    If one assumes that the spatio-temporal world is the basis in which consciousness comes to be, then an ordinary act of perception, which transcends space and time, is impossible.

    [cut]

    - Scott

    > [Original Message]
    > From: Ian Glendinning
    > To:
    > Date: 10/9/2004 6:06:19 AM
    > Subject: Re: MD On Faith - Improbability ?
    >
    > Yes Scot,
    > that's what I meant ...
    >
    > Dawkins (Mount Improbable) and others have spent millions of words arguing
    > the probablity aspects in great detail concerning the wonders of
    biological
    > / physical / functional development, but the outcomes are not incredible.
    > The "beat the odds" way of looking at it starts from the teleological
    > fallacy that there is some purposeful entity trying "to beat" those odds.
    > The probablities are simply that - actual outcomes amongst many
    > possibilities. We're dealing with complex systems. The "random" chance
    > aspects apply only to a certain small proportion of those events (eg
    > mutations and environment) in these huge webs of events, many more of
    which
    > are directed by biological and sociological drives of the players
    involved.
    >
    > I'm confident Darwinism (in its widest sense) can and will explain the
    rise
    > of consciousness too, at least I see no reason yet to say it will be
    > impossible.
    >
    > My big problem with Dawkins is his (exclusive) tunnel vision for
    scientific
    > objectivity.
    > http://www.psybertron.org/Dawkins%20Hyper-Rationalism.html
    > Despite being the person who coined memes, he misses the emergent
    complexity
    > of the involvement of consciousness in the web of evolution, which is not
    > surprising, since so far science has struggled to find a place for
    > consciousness anywhere. Dawkins is explicitly paid to promote science as
    the
    > Simonyi Professor for the public advancement of science, or whatever.
    >
    > But we're getting there - eventually science will learn that objectivity
    > isn't everything. (In fact huge tracts of science already have at both
    ends
    > of the scale - fundamental physics and the science of consciousness
    itself -
    > together, Holochory maybe ?). It's just social and political collective
    > consciousness of science - the memes - political correctness - you know,
    > funding, budgets, winning (binary) arguments, etc - that seems to hang
    onto
    > simple, discredited objective scientific rationale for its syllogistic
    > justifications.
    >
    > BTW, I'm currently reading Dr James Austin's "Zen and the Brain".
    > I've only just started, but it's an amazing (800 page) mix of detailed
    brain
    > physiology, consciousness research and Zen experience.
    >
    > Ian
    >

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