From: Chuck Roghair (ctr@pacificpartssales.com)
Date: Tue Oct 19 2004 - 14:09:53 BST
Sam:
Sam, you said:
"Hmm. I once read a description of the creed as being 'mystical theology
defined dogmatically', which I think sums it up. If you come at the creed
expecting a list of beliefs then that is what you will find. They need to be
understood within the context of an ongoing faith tradition, and not
abstracted (again, a SOMish pursuit)."
And then:
"It's the same as a zen koan. If you have to ask what is the sound of one
hand clapping, then you
haven't got it - it strikes you as 'at least a contradictory description, if
not outright
gibberish'. Quite so."
<Chuck responds:>
Are you saying that the following is the Catholic equivalent to "What is the
sound of one hand clapping?":
I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.
AMEN
Is that your position, Sam? Comparing "What is the sound of one hand
clapping?" to what is essentially a loyalty oath? And you're a priest?
I've sat through thousands of masses and heard armies of Catholic zombies
respond dutifully in mechanical cadence over and over. Even as a child, I
saw through the a whole charade as empty, meaningless posturing.
This is how religion at the Social Level is attempting to dominate
individuals at the Intellectual level which is the real immoral act and a
true sin. Calling the Apostle's creed a Zen Koan is just a lie; Sam, you
are the sinner!
That creed is nothing, if not a literal list of beliefs. If you can't
acknowledge that fact, at the very least, I see little point in any further
discussion.
This is why the MoQ is losing folks like Ian who are genuine proponents of
Pirsig's original vision.
Pushing the agenda of institutionalized religion here is a travesty and I'm
tired of it too. Please take it elsewhere.
Chuck
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