From: Charles Roghair (ctr@pacificpartssales.com)
Date: Tue Oct 19 2004 - 19:17:00 BST
Mark:
My level of animosity stems from the fact that those in Sam's camp have
the luxury of interpreting Christian Dogma and Biblical mythology in
any way necessary to support any argument whatsoever, thereby making
logical, reasonable discussion impossible. However, wide
interpretation is the exact opposite of how said hogwash is understood
in the real static Christian world by those with the sore knees–church
fodder–to whom the real, lasting damage is done.
I constantly hear talk of enlightened Christian theologians discussing
the new religion in the holy halls of the learned. I ask for
specifics. In which wing of the Vatican do these talks transpire?
When will news of these negotiations show up in my church bulletin? My
answer is stone silence.
In Sam, I see only another wolf disguised in wool.
I mean, come on, the Apostle's Creed a Zen Koan? What's next? The
Lord's Prayer is actually a passage from The Communist Manifesto?
They twist the truth and hide behind the cross and I find that
despicable. They endorse an institution with a history of grave
injustice toward humanity.
You don't understand my level of animosity? I don't understand your
level of ambivalence.
Before long, it'll be mostly Christian pulp around here and only a
fading memory of Quality.
Perhaps then you'll understand Ian's indignation a bit better. And
mine.
Respectfully,
Chuck
On Oct 19, 2004, at 9:00 AM, Mark Steven Heyman wrote:
> Hi Chuck,
>
> On this issue, I think you and I are are closer together than are Sam
> and I, but I really don't understand the level of your animosity.
> Such vehemence only weakens your position, IMO. Can't you just
> delete messages you don't want to read, or set your software to
> filter them out?
>
> As for Ian leaving, I'll miss his input but, really, this act of
> announcing one's departure then exiting stage left with a huff is a
> bit childish. Someone else chewed the scenery with it earlier this
> year, and my reaction then was the same: BFD. Like the whole
> freakin' operation is gonna grind to a halt without them.
>
> Anyway, just my two cents.
>
> Mark Steven Heyman (msh)
> --
> InfoPro Consulting - The Professional Information Processors
> Custom Software Solutions for Windows, PDAs, and the Web Since 1983
> Web Site: http://www.infoproconsulting.com
>
>
> "Thought is only a flash between two long nights, but this flash is
> everything." -- Henri Poincare'
>
>
>
>
> On 19 Oct 2004 at 6:09, Chuck Roghair wrote:
> Sam, you said:
>
> "Hmm. I once read a description of the creed as being 'mystical
> theology defined dogmatically', which I think sums it up. If you come
> at the creed expecting a list of beliefs then that is what you will
> find. They need to be understood within the context of an ongoing
> faith tradition, and not abstracted (again, a SOMish pursuit)."
>
> And then:
>
> "It's the same as a zen koan. If you have to ask what is the sound of
> one hand clapping, then you haven't got it - it strikes you as 'at
> least a contradictory description, if not outright gibberish'. Quite
> so."
>
> <Chuck responds:>
>
> Are you saying that the following is the Catholic equivalent to "What
> is the sound of one hand clapping?":
>
> I believe in God, the Father almighty,
> creator of heaven and earth.
> I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
> who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
> born of the Virgin Mary,
> suffered under Pontius Pilate,
> was crucified, died, and was buried;
> he descended to the dead.
> On the third day he rose again;
> he ascended into heaven,
> he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
> and he will come again to judge the living and the dead.
> I believe in the Holy Spirit,
> the holy catholic church,
> the communion of saints,
> the forgiveness of sins,
> the resurrection of the body,
> and the life everlasting.
>
> AMEN
>
>
> Is that your position, Sam? Comparing "What is the sound of one hand
> clapping?" to what is essentially a loyalty oath? And you're a
> priest?
>
> I've sat through thousands of masses and heard armies of Catholic
> zombies respond dutifully in mechanical cadence over and over. Even
> as a child, I saw through the a whole charade as empty, meaningless
> posturing.
>
> This is how religion at the Social Level is attempting to dominate
> individuals at the Intellectual level which is the real immoral act
> and a true sin. Calling the Apostle's creed a Zen Koan is just a
> lie;
> Sam, you are the sinner!
>
> That creed is nothing, if not a literal list of beliefs. If you
> can't acknowledge that fact, at the very least, I see little point in
> any further discussion.
>
> This is why the MoQ is losing folks like Ian who are genuine
> proponents of Pirsig's original vision.
>
> Pushing the agenda of institutionalized religion here is a travesty
> and I'm tired of it too. Please take it elsewhere.
>
> Chuck
>
>
>
>
>
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