From: David Morey (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Thu Oct 21 2004 - 18:41:43 BST
Hi Sam
I must support your view that it is perfectly possible that Christian
institutions will demonstrate their dynamic capacity to evolve.
Condemnation to the contrary is dogmatism and the pot calling
the kettle black. Good luck with helping this to happen. It would
be a good thing and there is no necessary reason why the Church cannot
shake off what has been bad and do more of what has been good
about it. Any intelligent look at history will see both the good and bad
of the Church.Whether there has been more bad than good is a hard
call. In fact I might just come down on the side of overall bad influence.
But as with politics, entering into the fray of reality is always going to
be a mixture of bad and good effect and good may prove to be
unattainable at a given time, condemnation from an armchair observer
is of little consequence. Will the Church be able to so transform inself?
My money is on the 'no' answer. I think the future lies with new religions
and new thinking. But I would not claim such failure is certain and
wish you well, the attempt is noble, may you not be misconceived in
your hope or lending your energy to a bad cause.
regards
David M
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Norton" <elizaphanian@kohath.wanadoo.co.uk>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 10:28 AM
Subject: MD Galileo
> Hi all,
>
> Content Advisory Warning: for those with an antipathy to Christian
> perspectives, please look away
> now. You must consider your blood pressure ;-)
>
> Pirsig claims that science is superior to Christian beliefs because it is
> more dynamic, specifically
> that it has an 'eraser'. He - in common with much conventional opinion -
> perceives Christianity as
> something which is unable to change, and therefore of comparatively low
> Quality. As you might
> imagine, I consider his opinion on this matter flawed and ill-founded.
>
> To bring this out, I'd like to look at the Galileo episode as Galileo is
> often brought out as an
> example of the wickedness of church institutions, and certainly, to
> execute someone for their
> beliefs is an abominable act. However, the wickedness of that act - and
> the use of this example in
> the various debates between 'science and religion' (in truth, internal
> arguments within the
> Modernist/SOM mindset) has distorted one particular truth - and when
> Pirsig, and others not too far
> away from this forum, repeat the idea that Christianity cannot change,
> they are reproducing a static
> pattern which is not true, that is, which has low Quality. So I'd like
> simply to point out that it
> is not true, as it would seem conducive to a proper discussion for us to
> be in full possession of
> the facts. Not least because the increasing salience of religious
> questions in our world in the
> coming years will force us to examine our deepest assumptions, both
> religious, atheist, agnostic and
> absconding - all of us.
>
> So, Galileo. I would want to point out two things.
>
> 1. Although Galileo's perspective was correct (ie the earth does travel
> round the sun) it could not
> be shown to be correct at the time of the debate. The Ptolemaic model was
> a more accurate model for
> predicting the movements of the heavenly bodies. Galileo's perspective had
> greater beauty, and
> promised great things, but it could not be shown to be correct at the time
> of his trial. (See Kuhn
> on this, amongst others).
>
> 2. The church authorities did not rule out the possibility of change. I
> quote from Cardinal
> Bellarmino (Galileo's antagonist): "If there were any real proof that the
> Sun is in the centre of
> the universe and that the earth is in the third heaven, and that the Sun
> does not go round the Earth
> but the Earth around the Sun, then we would have to proceed with great
> circumspection in explaining
> passages of Scripture which appear to teach the contrary, and rather admit
> that we did not
> understand them than declare an opinion to be false which is proved to be
> true". In other words, if
> Galileo could have proved his point, then the Church would have backed
> down.
>
> Sam
>
>
>
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