From: Joseph Maurer (jhmau@sbcglobal.net)
Date: Sat Nov 06 2004 - 19:50:28 GMT
On 5 November 2004 4:06 PM Ian writes:
<snip>
Mysticism ? No way. Anything you have not yet seen or understood is simply a
matter of not yet having looked or thought enough. I'm not aware of any
"mystical" explanations offerred to plug the gaps. Any gap in knowledge is
simply that, a gap, an unknown, currently a mystery, but nothing necessarily
mystical. Live with the gap until you find an answer, don't feel obliged to
plug it with either faith or rationale (unless working assumptions make you
feel comfortable, but then never forget it was just a working assumption.)
<snip>
Hi Ian and all,
Subject/object existence with essence. DQ/SQ order of existence. Any
statement of what DQ is becomes dogma a statement of trust/faith. Yet we
talk about DQ. In fact Pirsig's initial division of everything into DQ/SQ
seems right. How am I convinced? I accept the explanation through my
mystical experience of DQ. Mystical experience? Yes! Mysticism? If I want to
argue about it by analogy. DQ is undefined.
Joe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian Glendinning" <ian@psybertron.org>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 3:36 PM
Subject: Re: MD terror & religion
> From my own obviously enormous knowledge of religions :-)
>
> I would say "Eastern mysticism" is an oxymoron.
> Zen is Eastern, true enough, but seems neither mystical nor religious to
> me.
>
> Mysticism ? No way. Anything you have not yet seen or understood is simply
> a
> matter of not yet having looked or thought enough. I'm not aware of any
> "mystical" explanations offerred to plug the gaps. Any gap in knowledge is
> simply that, a gap, an unknown, currently a mystery, but nothing
> necessarily
> mystical. Live with the gap until you find an answer, don't feel obliged
> to
> plug it with either faith or rationale (unless working assumptions make
> you
> feel comfortable, but then never forget it was just a working assumption.)
>
> Religion ? Philosophy yes, model or view of the world yes, but religion
> no.
> It does not require you to believe (have faith in) any axioms other than
> the
> possibility that you might one day know something by a combination of
> observation and introspection and a respect that those who have
> experienced
> and thought more may actually be wiser than yourself.
>
> Ian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sam Norton" <elizaphanian@kohath.wanadoo.co.uk>
> To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 9:05 PM
> Subject: Re: MD terror & religion
>
>
>> Hi David,
>>
>> Don't know about attacked, my feeling was exasperation more than anything
> else. The particular quote
>> that got my goat was:
>>
>> "While Eastern mysticism has its fair share of unjustified belief, it
> undoubtedly represents
>> humankind's best attempt at fashioning a spiritual science. The methods
>> of
> introspection one finds
>> in Buddhism, for instance, have no genuine equivalents in the West. And
> the suggestion that they do
>> is born of a desperate attempt on the part of Westerners to make all
> religious traditions seem
>> equally wise. They simply aren't."
>>
>> I just don't think that's a defensible point of view - I can't see a
> better way of describing it
>> than as a prejudice, ie an opinion formed without a full acquaintance
>> with
> the facts of the matter.
>> Not uncommon, but not worth celebrating either.
>>
>> As for a fallible seeking of the truth, I'm with you completely.
>> Certainty
> is the scary thing - but
>> this guy was displaying more than enough certainty for the time being. I
> think there's a very
>> interesting and fruitful discussion to be had, linking the MoQ with what
> is good in the western
>> tradition, but that can only be had when these sorts of prejudices have
> been removed. For as long as
>> they remain there will be more heat than light - and that applies to the
> bombs as well as the words.
>>
>> Regards
>> Sam
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "David Morey" <us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk>
>> To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
>> Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 5:17 PM
>> Subject: Re: MD terror & religion
>>
>>
>> > Hi Sam
>> >
>> > Interesting, do you feel attacked in this interview?
>> > Can you expand upon what is misconceived by the author?
>> > Personally I put a fallible seeking of truth before religion,
>> > and fear the potential violence of those who claim to 'know'
>> > although at this time this seeking places me outside of the
>> > secular camp and its built-in incapacity to face its own inadequacies.
>> >
>> > DM
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>
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