From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Sun Nov 07 2004 - 01:51:57 GMT
Sam, msh and all MOQers:
Sam Norton responded to the Harris interview:
Sigh. Yet another ill-informed diatribe. DMB will like it though ;-)
dmb sez:
Yes, I very much liked that "ill-informed diatribe". Harris asserted some of
the most central points that I've been making here in recent weeks. It was
like hearing an echo. (You really should stop characterizing everyone who
disagrees with you as ignorant and bigoted.)
Sam explained:
These sorts of thinkers, so it seems to me, are merely replicating the
'hippy' problem that Pirsig talks about - they are cutting out the ground
from under their feet. Wherever we end up, it will have to be an ideology
that affirms elements of the social level, otherwise we truly are doomed.
dmb says:
Right. Harris is a hippy. The interview made it clear that he was all into
tuning in, dropping out, free love and organic farming. Again, Sam, I think
you're being quite ridiculous. Harris is not confused about the distinction
between biology and the mystical, as Pirsig describes the hippy failure. He
is not rejecting social and intellectual patterns either.
Actually, retaining the wisdom of the social level is one of the central
aspects of the perennial philosophy and Harris seems to be entirely
consistent with this idea. There is certainly a part of the social level
that can stand up to the demands of empiricism and can be defended within
philosophical mysticism. Here's Ken Wilber on the issue...
"THE PERENNIAL PHILOSOPHY (the term was made famous by Huxley but coined by
Leibniz) - the transcentental essence of the great religions - has as its
core the notion of 'nonduality', which means that reality is neither one nor
many, neither permanent nor dynamic, neither seperate nor unified, neither
pluralistic nor holistic. It is entirely and radically above and prior to
ANY form of conceptual elaboration. ..Sri Ramana Maharshi had a perfect
summary of the paradox of the ultimate:"
The world is illusory;
Brahman alone is real;
Brahman is the world.
"THE PERENNIAL PHILOSOPHY is the worldview that has been embraced by the
vast majority of the world's greatest spiritual teachers, philosophers,
thinkers, and even scientists. Its called 'perennial' or 'universal' because
it shows up in virtually all cultures across the globe and across the ages.
And wherever we find it, it has essentially similar features, it is in
essential agreement the world over. We moderns, who can hardly agree on
anything, find this rather hard to believe."
"To begin with the premodern or traditional sources, the easiest access to
their wisdom is through what has been called the perennial philosophy, or
the common core of the world's great spiritual traditions. As Huston Smith,
Arthur Lovejoy, Ananda Coomaraswamy, and other scholars of these traditions
have pointed out, the core of the perennial philosophy is the view that
reality is composed of various LEVELS OF EXISTENCE - levels of being and
knowing - ranging from matter to body to mind to soul to spirit. Each senior
dimension transcends but includes its juniors, so that this is a conception
of wholes within wholes within wholes indefinitely, reaching from dirt to
divinity." (Emphasis is Wilber's)
Harris said:
"While Eastern mysticism has its fair share of unjustified belief, it
undoubtedly represents humankind's best attempt at fashioning a
spiritual science. The methods of introspection one finds in
Buddhism, for instance, have no genuine equivalents in the West. And
the suggestion that they do is born of a desperate attempt on the
part of Westerners to make all religious traditions seem equally
wise. They simply aren't."
msh replied:
There are just tons of "methods of introspection" in Western culture:
Prayer, fasting, listening to music, viewing art, CREATING art of any kind,
lifting weights and raking leaves, for heaven's sake. American Indian
religion alone can hold its own with anything rooted in the East when it
comes to methods of introspection, as anyone who's read LILA already
understands.
dmb says:
I think we can't really compare the kind of introspection harris is talking
about. Fasting, prayer, music and the rest may be powerful, but they're not
the kind of thing upon which we can build a "spiritual science". Uma
Thurman's dad says the same thing. Robert Thurman says that the West's
material success is equivalent to the East's mental success, if you will.
Just as we have landed a man on the moon, so has the East reached such
extremes of the inner world. He's particularly fond a Tibetian Buddhism, but
in any case, the idea is simply that they are advanced in the area of
mysticism. Since mysticism is essentially blasphemy in the West, this should
come as no big surprize. Its been filtered out by both our religious and
scientific cultures and so its only natural that its relatively
underdeveloped.
Thanks.
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