Re: MD Where does quality reside?

From: David Morey (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Thu Nov 11 2004 - 18:34:35 GMT

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    Scott:
    > I believe current psychological research shows that babies are born with
    > the ability to detect some patterns -- faces, for instance. So this
    > statement needs, at least, refinement.

    DM: Well we are embodied beings, we start off with a whole set of
    established patterns.

    > The problem, I assume, is that we are unable to think of consciousness
    > except in S/O terms.

    DM: I think the need to get away from the 'subject' makes Pirsig go this
    way.

    Scott:
    > One is to assume that there is always some subject and some object, so
    > back
    > when all there was only the inorganic (as far as we can tell empirically),
    > then there must have also been some non-material consciousness observing
    > the inorganic and thinking "this is good". The other answer is to assume
    > that it is somehow meaningful to speak of consciousness without an object
    > and without a subject. Since this is how Franklin Merrell-Wolff describes
    > his mystical experience, I consider him worth listening to on this
    > question. If we accept this answer, then our inability to think of
    > consciousness except in S/O terms just means that we are not finished in
    > terms of the evolution of thinking.

    DM: That seems fair to me.

    It could be that what Pirsig and James mean by "pure experience"
    > is what Merrell-Wolff means by "consciousness without S/O", so it just
    > turns into a question of which term one privileges, but there are
    > ramifications that the Merrell-Wolff view takes into account that the MOQ
    > does not. Such as timelessness.

    DM: This is how I assume Pirsig feels, so what are these rams?

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