From: mel (mbtlehn@ix.netcom.com)
Date: Tue Nov 16 2004 - 16:13:04 GMT
Hello Jon and Mark and All:
The history of warfare shows that the European
traditional approach to war since it's height in the
time circa 17th-18th C.s has been one of Army v Army
at times almost Chess-like at its extreme, but
it shows more pointedly that with few exceptions
such an approach is an anomaly world-wide.
Most Asian land wars were full on extermination
style warfare, bent on obliterating anyone resistant
to the conquering power. Only complete surrender
allowed survival, even then not always.
The notion of collateral damage loss of life by
non-combatants in this light is a VERY real
distinction that should be clearly understood.
Mention was made of WWII and the civilian
bombing. The practice in '41-42 was nearly
unthinkable to the militaries on the allied side.
The Axis powers did engage in it as their "moral"
right to dominate inferior cultures. (Obviously
shameless third level thinking) Only at the
insistence of their civilian bosses, as a response
to the enemy was the military structure dragged
literally kicking and screaming into using any
civilian targets.
Many of the old line officers never were able to
hold their heads up after that and they gave way
to the younger more adaptable officers who rose
to take their places.
DO understand the stakes they perceived at the
time: Survival or Complete Extinction of their
very existence. Liberal Democratic forms of
government or Totalitarian Dominance.
Americans are inherently and surprisingly
isolationist even to this day, as individuals,
but in a century or more of time we have
seen that folks left alone in other parts of
the world get up to significant mischief.
Our lesson learned (right or wrong) is to
kill, cripple, derail, or buy-off mischief
makers early in their cycle of ambition and
expend fewer lives of our young later.
At times we over do it, but that is the price
of variant views and interpretations.
If them pesky foreign folk would just behave
and leave us alone, we could get back to
turning everything into Disney land and
efficiently rape and pillage the earth in peace
for all mankind. (yes the last paragraph is a
Joke, no new thread needed.)
thanks--mel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
[mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk] On Behalf Of Ascmjk@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 6:36 AM
To: moq_discuss@moq.org
Subject: Re: MD the worst thing about 9/11 according to the MoQ
In a message dated 11/15/2004 9:24:54 PM Central Standard Time,
markheyman@infoproconsulting.com writes:
Let's set aside for the moment the historical fact that the US most
certainly has deliberately killed civilians, in Dresden, Nagasaki,
Hiroshima, Royan in France at the very end of WWII for no military
reason other than wanting to test Napalm, which would then be used to
kill more civilians in North and South Vietnam, Laos, illegal and
secret carpet-bombing of Cambodia... Not to mention financial,
military, and diplomatic support of Indonesia's genocide in East
Timor, direct military, financial, and logistical support for death
squads in El Salvador and Guatemala, direct terrorist strikes against
the democratically elected government of Nicaragua..... Well, it
goes on and on, and back to the very beginnings of the country.
Translation: See, the United States is a fundamentally evil, murdering
nation, all the way back to its very beginning. Anything good it has
accomplished is inconsequential compared to its overwhelming
contribution to human misery and an unforgivable roadblock to ultimate
utopia.
MSH:
Instead, let's focus on the first few days and nights of the recent
US invasion of Iraq, when hundreds of Cruise missiles were fired into
Baghdad business and government centers and surrounding
neighborhoods. Conservative estimates put the civilian death toll at
well over a thousand due to these missile attacks alone. In what
sense, precisely, is this not intentionally murdering civilians?
What's the argument? "Well, we didn't tell them to be sleeping
there, in their homes, at 3am, dammit. They got in the way!"
JON:
Again, you prove me fundamental point about intent. You're actually
suggesting that civilians being killed accidentally is the SAME as the
civilians who have been beheaded? Again, INTENT. If you set out to
"prove" that killing civilians accidentally is the SAME as proudly
holding up a severed head, you're going to sound increasingly foolish.
And if civilian killing were actually a goal of the US, wouldn't it be a
lot easier to simply round up some innocents off the street, and execute
them? Why go to the elaborate lengths of ordering expensive bombing
missions, when outright executions would be so much economical? Maybe
because the US does NOT want to give the impression of being proud of
killing, yet the terrorists demonstrably DO want to give the impression
that they are happy to execute innocents?
MSH:
Jon, your little essay is nonsense, the rantings of a mind horribly
brain-washed of historical reality. Sorry. Nothing personal: you
can probably blame it on your parents, or maybe Rush Limbaugh or
something, Bill O'Reilly. Or have you been hanging around with my
friend Platt? Anyway...thanks for the fantasy diversion.
JON:
Translation: Obviously, anyone who disagrees with your unspeakably
powerful logic must be insane. After all, you speak of self-evident
truths, right? Sorry you can't handle the possibility of being wrong
about Iraq and the United States. It seems that you have ready-made
pigeonholes for all the varieties of people who disagree with you. If
someone agrees with Rush or O'Reilly, they must be brainwashed. Funny
how you can't discuss views that are different from yours without A:
making personal comments/observations about the mind of the posters, or
B: telling the posters how they are supposed to respond to you. You can
argue a point forcefully without resorting to personal comments.
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