From: Scott Roberts (jse885@earthlink.net)
Date: Tue Nov 16 2004 - 14:36:07 GMT
DMB,
> Some good points here. I am aware of the religious involvement in almost
all
> of America's best social justice movements, not least of all the abolition
> of slavery. But I'd also point out that Lincoln and MLK were shot to
death,
> the admitance of gays into the Episcopal Church could very well shatter it
> in two, liberation theology has been throughly demonized and equated with
> communism and the Christic Institute is a rare exception, especially these
> days.
According to CNN exit polls, 50% of Catholics and 40% of Protestants voted
for Kerry. That is not a rare exception.
And most importantly, such ecumenical forces were conspicuosly abset
> during this election season. What we're looking at and talking about is
the
> ascendence of the religious right, which really just began with the Reagan
> administration. Still, you make a good point. Christians weren't always
> fascists, but that is what we're looking at, don't you agree?
I agree that Falwell-type Christians have gotten a lot more powerful
lately. That is why I think it reprehensible to alienate moderate and
liberal Christians by lumping them all together.
>
> If your point is that I should say something nice about those other
> christians each time I criticize the other, it sounds like you're asking a
> little too much.
My point is only that the two groups be distinguished. By failing to
distinguish them you are saying that people who actually agree with you on
social issues are your enemy. You don't have to say anything at all about
them, just don't say false things about them.
I mean, you agreed with everything else that came before
> and so you had to be perfectly well aware of what I was refering to,
right?
What does that have to do with it? Yes, I agree that the Jerry Falwell's of
the country are dangerous. So don't alienate Christians who also think he
is dangerous by saying "God save us from Christians".
> And if you're interested in protecting a more respectable form of
> christianity, why aren't you equally outraged by right-wing
fundamentalists?
Who says I'm not equally outraged? However, I am also outraged that you
lump all Christians under one political category.
> Rather than just distance yourself from them, why not contrast their
hateful
> ignorance with your own enlightened and compassionate christianity? Hey,
> don't blame me because others have given christianity a bad name, This is
> not a prejudice or ignorance, its an historical fact. Its a present fact.
Do
> we not have to deal with these problems if we are to discuss religion
> philosophically.
If you don't make distinctions it is prejudice. Are all Germans Nazis? Are
all Americans guilty of invading Iraq? It is a historical fact that many
Germans were Nazis and that the USA invaded Iraq. This gave the Germans and
the Americans a bad name. But that does not justify condemning all Germans
or all Americans.
As for dealing with this problem in discussing religion philosophically,
haven't I explicitly excluded fundamentalists and their ilk when I make my
theological points? Why can't you do the reverse in making political points?
>
> Look, its clear to me that you identify with christianity to the extent
that
> any critiicism of it feels like criticism of you personally. But I can't
do
> anything about that. And I'm not going to refrain from expressing an
opinion
> on the grounds that it might hurt someone's feelings. And to accept the
> actual content of that criticism and then demand qualifiers that exempt
you
> from that criticism is - well frankly - childish. Its an emotional demand,
> not a rational one.
This is your idea of rationality? Looks more like an attempt to shift the
discussion away from the facts. But I will admit that I care about this
issue. I know people who are liberal, intelligent, and Christian, and, yes,
I demand qualifiers that exempt them. Wouldn't you demand an exemption from
someone who says that Americans are imperialists?
If expressing your opinion results in slandering tens of millions I'd take
a good hard look at why your desire to express your opinions results in
this sort of misrepresentation.
- Scott
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