From: PhaedrusWolf@aol.com
Date: Sun Nov 21 2004 - 01:17:35 GMT
In a message dated 11/20/04 5:15:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
pholden@sc.rr.com writes:
I think Pirsig simply means the map is not the territory and that you can
make up (invent) all kinds of maps to represent the same territory. The
subject-object, mind-matter, form-substance maps have proven of value in
guiding mankind's way through life's hills and valleys. Otherwise, we
wouldn't be here. That said, Pirsig believes the DQ-SQ map is better
because it's covers more territory.
Hi Platt,
Is this map a guide for Western thought, maybe the 'Metaphysics' part of MOQ?
What Scott said;
What I am saying is that it is meaningless to talk about "just value".
Rather, value always occurs in a context, even as it is the power that creates
that context. However we may divide up reality is, as Pirsig says, contingent,
but there must be some distinguishing or there is no value, there is just pure
undifferentiated nothingness. But form is not other than emptiness,
emptiness is not other than form. (In a letter to someone, I forget who, Pirsig notes
that Quality, as used in the MOQ, is just another name for what Buddhists
call Emptiness).
So subject and object were formed to explain the unexplainable(?) It takes
on the pretense of being separate, but is not. Mind, matter, form, substance,
subject, or object do not exist, as they are all separate from the source,
made up of mind, matter, form, substance, subject and object which would not be
without the compilation of mind, matter, form, substance, subject and object.
There is not mind, matter, form, substance, subject and object, because in
order to be, it would have to be separate, which it is not(?) Was it as he
said "dialectical inventions" of the Greeks?
From Einstein;
"A human being is a part of a whole, called by us _universe_, a part limited
in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as
something separated from the rest" This he calls an "optical delusion of his
consciousness."
Which, both, make sense according to how you look at it. What Pirsig is
trying to do (I think) is to blend Western and Eastern thought. -or- Is there
subject and object differential in Eastern thought as well?
Don't get me wrong; I am not trying to confuse or be confused. As Socrates
said, "The unexamined life is not worth living." I do see where subject and
object come in, but I also think I see where Quality of Value come before
subject and object.
I am concerned that concern has been mentioned that this is where Pirsig
went wrong, because it brought criticism form other philosophers. Considering
Pirsig had mastered the SQ, which it seems he had, then we should not be
concerned that others who had not mastered the SQ of their philosophical ponderings
would criticize someone who reaches out for this DQ. He has not really
turned his back on SQ literally, just freed himself to focus on DQ. SQ is still
there, as his focusing on DQ does not cause the SQ to go away; it is just
allowed to be out of focus for a while. It would seem to me that DQ would more
depend on going a path that has not already been taken, as all these paths would
lead to the same place.
Am I mistaken that this DQ has to do with the 'Affairs of man?" If so, then
it doesn't lend itself only to subject/object. The lack of 'Self' in Eastern
Philosophy might be where RMP is getting Quality from. Selflessness may be the
answer to finding Quality, and/or Quality decisions(?) Seems simple, but it
works for me.
Should I stop here? :o)
I am appreciative of your patience. I have a lot to learn, but as long as
you will put up with me, time to do so as I feel I have mastered the lower
Quality/Value items on my plate to some degree.
I am mostly intrigued with this idea of 'Quality decisions.'
Chin
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