RE: MD James, Pirsig, Mysticism

From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Mon Nov 22 2004 - 01:16:11 GMT

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    Sam Norton asked:
    What I'm trying to focus in on is how you understand the PP. Is it a social
    level phenomenon (in which case, how do you reconcile describing it as 'like
    a chemically purified abstraction'); or is it intellectual level (in which
    case, how does it relate to the social level, eg language, ritual, etc); or
    is it a culture all of its own, with its own unique shape?

    dmb answered:
    Philosophy is intellectual, wouldn't you agree? Philosophy is proabably the
    most obvious and least controversial examples of intellectual quality,
    right? So, yes, of course the perennial philosophy is intellectual. I really
    don't understand why this should be a question. And when I say that it
    preserves the wisdom of the social level, preserves the central message of
    the world's great religions and myths, that it sees that is DQ portrayed in
    these social level forms, I mean just that. Its a philosophy that EXTRACTS
    wisdom from the social level. Its not that complicated, Sam. The new has
    built upon the best of the old. I'm not saying the perennial philosophy is
    JUST LIKE the social level, with its own myths, rituals, languages,
    cultures, cops, armies, its own money, its own economy - or anything like
    that. Where do you get this stuff?

    Sam asked:
    How do you know that "The distinction between myth and fact is a distinction
    between social and intellectual"? Can you explain why you think this is
    true?..

    Two things: 1. we disagree on how to read Pirsig on this; 2. your quotes,
    especially from Wilber,
    are appealing to authorities which I do not necessarily recognise. Did you
    not listen to MSH the
    other day when he said that we need to be able to express the thoughts in
    our own language and not
    make external appeals? All I am asking is that you set out clearly in your
    own words how you know
    that "The distinction between myth and fact is a distinction between social
    and intellectual". All
    you have done so far is say 'Pirsig, Wilber and Campbell tell me that it is
    so, and I believe them'.
    Surely you can do better than that?

    dmb says:
    That's just bullshit. I have explained things in my own words virtually
    every time I've posted - for years. The quotes only lend support and
    clarity. Yes, the expertise of the scholars quoted does add some weight, but
    these ideas certainly do NOT stand or fall upon anyone's authority. In fact,
    the various voices I use are meant to show that its not about this guy or
    that. Its about hearing good ideas expressed in various voices, including my
    own.

    But more to the point, I think its true because its an ecomonical
    explanation, its logically consistent within the MOQ and with everything I
    know about human history, about the evolution of human consciousness and
    social development, it matches my own experience, it serves to explain the
    world around me on a continuing basis. I feel the distinction within my own
    mind. I don't know what else to tell you.

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