From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Sun Dec 12 2004 - 01:48:52 GMT
Sam, msh and all MOQers:
dmb says:
There are lots of "powerful" issues here, but I want to focus on "moral
equivalence"....
Mark Steven Heyman asked - Wednesday, December 08, 2004 8:59 PM:
This idea of "moral equivalence," though it's frequently tossed
about, seems to me to be rather ill-defined. Can you tell me what
you mean by it? And did you find that Solomon advocated this idea?
Or was this something you sensed just from reading the MOQer posts.
If Solomon, can you remember a specific column or two? Or maybe
another example of the moral equivalence argument in action, and who
made it?
Sam Norton explained - Thursday, December 09, 2004 3:32 PM:
...I can explain what I mean by 'moral equivalence'. Formally the argument
looks like this: Country X acts immorally by doing action A;
Country Y acts immorally by doing action B; therefore Country X is as bad as
country Y, because they are both immoral. When it's spelt out like this it
becomes obvious where the flaw is, because for that argument to hold, A and
B have to be morally equivalant - hence the name. I think that the issue is
how bad A is compared to B (and how far that should constrain the way that
country X or Y acts as a result).
dmb says:
I think this is one of those culture war things and the phrase "moral
equivalence" is to be contrasted with "American exceptionalism". And what we
see here in Sam's formulation reflects a condemnation of the former and an
assertion of the later. To conservatives, America is that city on a hill, is
unique in the world and so no other nation can rightly be compared. It says
that when we do nasty things, it is a abberant mistake, a fluke that will
not be repeated, a horrible necessity of doing god's work and winning the
cold war. Moral equivalence is a cold war phrase, used by anti-communists as
a label for those who did not accept the notion that America gets to play by
different rules, who do not accept the notion of American exceptonalism.
See, to those who do not buy the notion the formulation looks much
different. It says something more like... Country X acts immorally in doing
A; Country Y acts immorally in doing A; therefore A is immoral no matter who
does and even if we do it. When seen that way, it is not a bonehead idea, it
is the negation of a bonehead idea. American exceptionalism is rarely
anything more than nationalism and cultural bias. Its on a par with loving
one's mother. Its all fine and good and normal to love one's mother, but
c'mon. If we're talking about an honest appraisal of US foreign policies, I
think such sentiments only get in the way of clear thinking.
Sam had said:
An example would be something like: the US has acted immorally in Latin
America for decades (you know the details); Saddam Hussein acted immorally
throughout his tenure on power; therefore the American invasion of Iraq is
wrong/hypocritical (because the US is as bad as Hussein - the moral
equivalence).
dmb says:
Maybe somebody actuall made that argument but, again, that looks like the
characterization of a hostile witness to me. I think the actual argument, or
at least the one I have pressed upon my friends, is that the stated goal of
ending tyranny and fostering democracy in Iraq is contracted by the actions
the the USG elsewhere. And that insonsistancy does not require us to compare
apples and oranges. The charges of hypocracy stem from the facts already
mentioned, that Saddam's atrocities were carried out with the support of the
USG. He and Osama are blowback. Like lots of thugs around the world, they
were originally trained and supplied by the USG! This is not just cold war
stuff either. Please recall the current administration's support for the
coup plotters in Venezuala or the escort service they provided for Aristide
a few months ago. I mean, no reasonable person should even be tempted to say
"the US is as bad as Hussein". That would be comparing a person to a
country, for starters. And I don't know who might want to sort out nations
on the basis of their propencity for evil. I think the critics of US policy
merely want the nation to be principled and consistent when it comes to
living up to our ideals. I think anyone who loves these ideals would be and
should be outraged at the idea of overthrowing a democracy in order to
ensure cheap bananas, coffee or oil. That's wrong no matter who does it,
right?
Sam continued his splainin':
The key concept for me is the complexity of the actor/state. In other words,
I don't automatically agree that because the US state acted immorally in
sphere A (Chile for example) it is likely that it
will act immorally in sphere B (Iraq). I don't think it's possible to be
that consistent, either in the description of acts by the state or in the
performance of acts by the state, the latter being far too protean and (yes)
dynamic in many ways. So I think what needs to be done is to establish the
morality or immorality of a particular act (invasion of Iraq) largely
independently of actions elsewhere.
dmb says:
I don't know Sam, it sounds like you're giving your mother permission to be
hypocritical. Of course one bad act doesn't mean the thing is pure evil or
incapable of good acts. But if we see a pattern, and I think we do, of
consistently violating our own principles and beliefs for geo-political and
material reasons then we MUST object, no?
msh earlier:
But I also understand your reluctance to reject the idea that OUR
leaders are somehow different in nature from THEIR leaders. This is
the expected result of being told from the cradle, every day in a
hundred ways, that our country is great and good, our leaders
beneficent and wise; though they may make a mistake here or there,
our leaders are diligently and selflessly striving to make the world
a better place for all. But the educational and mass media
apparatus of EVERY state is dedicated to inculcating these exact
notions. This fact alone should make us suspicious of our own
beliefs along this line.
sam replied:
Yes, but even after viewing comparative political systems through the
hermeneutic of suspicion I remain of the view that the "Western"
system (I'm thinking specifically of: the rule of law; individual
autonomy; democracy; free speech etc) is indeed better than the
alternatives.
dmb says:
Well, yes. You're talking about the dignities of Modernity, the intellectual
values that Pirsig specifically sites as the values that should guide
society. I hope we all agree that these are the principles at issue. The
questions really revolve around how well those are served and how well we
adhere to them in international relations and such, right? I think these
ideals are so well loved that they are presently being used as window
dressing for policies that have very little to do with actually fostering
them. Its just packagaing and if I thought they were correct and sincere,
I'd go along with the war. But I think the case for war was littered with
talk of democracy and rights for the same reason it was littered with talk
of mushroom clouds. And that reason? Emotional impact. It has a way of
clouding the mind and the issues when its all wrapped up in flags, apple pie
and the spectre of death, you know? And its not that I automatically
disbelieve them becasue they are conservatives or Repulicans, its just the
track record of these particular individuals and this administration. (Paul
Wolfowitz, for example, is one of the chief architects and cheerleaders for
the war and he also happens to have had a hand in propoing up most of the
major I think they reveal themselves in their actions and hide their actions
behind those words. This explains why the administration acts as if facts
and the news together constitutes a conspiracy against them.
sam before:
Thing is, I was also having this argument with a friend, and saying
that Bush wasn't quite as immoral as my friend was alleging. And
then my friend pointed out that Bush was happy to execute minors and
the mentally retarded, and I was silenced, because (as my friend
well knew) I think capital punishment is indefensible.
dmb says:
This serves as a good example of viewing these guys through their actions
rather than their speeches. The man who was responsible for bringing the
final pleas of death row inmates before then Governor Bush consistently
provided information that was thin and incomplete, thereby removing any
chance of a stay of execution. (Even if they are crazy women or retarded
boys.) This same monster wrote the now famous torture memo explaining how
and why the USG was not bound by the Geneva Conventions or other
international laws prohibiting torture. Abu Grab-ass followed in its wake.
And what does Bush do with such a lethal and cruel man? Appoints him to be
our new Attorney General. See? The ones who exhibit the greatest degree of
contempt for rights should be condemned as anti-American but are instead
given great authority and prestige. When one apparently so eager to execute
criminals and allow torture is promoted to be the chief law enforcement
officer in the nation, it sends an extrememly anti-democratic message. Its
says volumes about what this crowd REALLY believes. Are you gonna believe
thier speeches or your lying eyes? With apologies to Groucho...
dmb
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