From: Phaedrus Wolff (PhaedrusWolff@carolina.rr.com)
Date: Fri Dec 17 2004 - 03:05:47 GMT
Marsha) I don't agree with the master/novice analogy. It's more being in
total
awareness. That can happen to a novice with very little training, if he's
in total concentration, or mindfulness. You don't necessarily need many
years, or a teacher. But they might help a lot if one tends to overthink
everything. Do you think their are levels of mystical experience?
Hi Marsha,
I personally don't think there is a need for levels in a mystical
experience. I think you stated it best earlier on when you said it is "time
to empty the tea cup."
I wasn't really sure what you meant by that, so I let it ride until after I
felt you out a little. Sicne you haven't posted that much of your thought,
but if by emptying the tea cup you meant emptying the mind of the common
sense that has been drilled into it, I would think this is the best way to
get to a point of being capable of, not having a mystical experience, but
realizing you have when you have.
I think Pirsig mentioned Einstein's statement that common sense was what was
drilled into you by the time you were 18. (or something like that)
Shaw has a different twist on this. He says "Common sense is intuitive;
enough of it is genius."
This intuitive thought is what arouses my curiosity. The American Indian
looks toward the Great Spirits of the past, somehing similar to Socrates
souls would look toward the wisdom they had learned in the past. (this does
'Not' mean I am pushing Plato's mysticism; it is just an analogy)
My curiosity comes from the thought that some have more inherent knowledge
than others prior to any 'Molding' of the mind by the school system. My
question on this, which I have come no where close to answering would be is
it a matter of a make up of the brain or of the mind? Pheneas Gage, the
earliest subject of neurology, brought on the realization that there are
more active parts of the brain in some than in others. In an undamaged
brain, my curiosity is in the idea that the brain is conditioned by the mind
or heredity or culture, or is it a condition you are born with.
The purple pill you mentioned earlier fits into this. (James who Sam
mentions took a stance against the purple pill of his day) The success of
the use of stimulants in children has been well overstated IMHO. The success
comes from slowing down the brain activity, which keeps the children
behaviorally more acceptable, and helps them to 'Concentrate'; a buzz word
that shows a child will do their homework more readily if they are jombied
out. My concern it that it is a blocking of the mind by rearanging the
chemicals in the brain, which brings the child down to a more manageable
member of society, so that society can 'Mold' the mind.
Though it does seem to work, what happens to this intuitive common
sense? - - What happens to their awareness? - - What happens to their
ability to think critically and/or independently?
I've got to stop now. Life's calling, and all I am doing is rambling anyway.
:o)
Chin
----- Original Message -----
From: "MarshaV" <marshalz@i-2000.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: MD Socratic Mysticism and Pirsig
> At 12:19 PM 12/16/2004 +0000, Sam wrote:
> >Mystics are those who know the tradition so well that they are free to
> >develop or change it; or, to bring out and make explicit those Qualities
> >within the tradition that had previously been hidden. It's what Pirsig
> >talks about when he describes the welder, or when he describes the art of
> >motorcycle maintenance - the motorcycle and the mechanic are one, and
> >there is a complete fluidity, a complete absence of constraint - but it
is
> >*specifically* built on all that has gone before. I think this is also
> >what Mark Maxwell is talking about when he describes the 'sweet spot' of
> >coherent static patterns. Which is why I don't think you can get to that
> >stage unless you have first attained some sort of mastery of the
> >accumulated static patterns; it would be like a novice mechanic getting
> >'with it' and shearing the threads off a screw because he hadn't yet
> >acquired the basic 'feel' for how tightly to twist it. Such a novice
> >mechanic, if they then turned round and claimed to be 'with it, going
with
> >the flow, in tune with the cosmos etc' would be considered a right prat -
> >(we're back to my spiritual masturbation point again) - in other words
> >there are always criteria for assessing the Quality of what is claimed to
> >be mystical.
>
>
> Dear Sam and Chin,
>
> I don't agree with the master/novice analogy. It's more being in total
> awareness. That can happen to a novice with very little training, if he's
> in total concentration, or mindfulness. You don't necessarily need many
> years, or a teacher. But they might help a lot if one tends to overthink
> everything. Do you think their are levels of mystical experience?
>
> MarshaV
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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