Re: MD The MOQ and Mysticism 101

From: Sam Norton (elizaphanian@kohath.wanadoo.co.uk)
Date: Sun Dec 26 2004 - 17:50:34 GMT

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    Hi MSH,

    > I'd like to simplify the raging debate between Sam and DMB, for my
    > own sanity and peace of mind, if nothing else.

    Marvellous, great, wonderful, it'll do wonders for my sanity and peace of mind as well. DMB and I
    have been going at this for so long that all the oxygen has been sucked out of the atmosphere, burnt
    up in our flamings. Other people contributing will let in some fresh air.

    > I think the essence
    > of their disagreement can be examined in terms of what each claims is
    > revealed through a mystical experience.

    Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!

    Or, well, sort of. The notion of "mystical experience" is what is being contested, from my point of
    view at least.

    > For DMB, a mystical experience reveals that god exists, and we,
    > everything, every rock root and sentient, are pure god, through and
    > through. We, each and everyone of us, are complete and equal in our
    > godliness.
    >
    > I think Sam is saying that a mystical experience reveals that there
    > is a God, and that we are part of it, but not all of it. There is
    > something external to us that is God as All. And (taking a chance
    > here) Sam might be suggesting that our complete realization of GOD
    > (our becoming one with God) isn't possible through any "earthly"
    > mystical revelation, but only after bodily death.

    DMB can comment on whether he thinks your characterisation of his view is accurate. But the word
    'God' has come up remarkably seldom in our conversations, it seems to me. So I'm interested as to
    why you've brought it in. I think DMB would prefer to use the language of 'the one' for a start.
    Besides which, I don't think there is any one thing that mystical experience reveals, there is no
    'common core' - that's the main thing that I object to, the idea that the different mysticisms are
    interchangeable. And in contrast to what DMB would have you believe, that isn't just something I
    would claim from a Christian perspective, it flows from understanding Wittgenstein and his notion of
    'family resemblance'. I think the different mystical traditions are just that - different - and I
    think those differences should be respected.

    Sam

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