From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Mon Dec 27 2004 - 00:46:40 GMT
Sam Norton said:
My basic point is that the structure of the MoQ, specifically the
'pre-intellectual cutting edge of
reality', seems to correspond exactly with Schleiermacher, as presented by
Jantzen. Thus, "immediate
consciousness points to the stage before subject and object are
differentiated. There is,
Schleiermacher suggests, a primal stage of consciousness in any experience,
a stage before the
objective content is discriminated from the subjective participation. This
consciousness cannot be
consciousness of anything, it cannot have any specificity, because by the
time the object of
consciousness has been specified one has already moved away from the primal
undifferentiated state."
dmb says:
I think you should have used this quote in your first post on the topic. Now
I see what you're talking about and it looks exactly like Pirsig's
description, same terms and everything.
Sam continued:
This just struck me as worth pursuing. Consider the following theses:
a) Schleiermacher created the contemporary understanding of mysticism as
something flowing from felt
personal experience;
b) Schleiermacher described that felt personal experience as preceding the
separation between
subject and object;
c) Schleiermacher's motivation for this was to extricate religious
epistemology (how we know) from
Kant, so that the religious realm is not discarded.
dmb says:
1) The claim that he created the contemporary understanding is dubious. At
best, he was among the first Modern figures to describe a mystical
experience in terms of subjects and objects, in terms of the Modern
metaphysical assumptions. That is entirely possible. But I think its a huge
mistake to conclude that the mystical experience itself is a Modern
invention. The descriptions have changed to accomodate the Modern mind and
they are still changing in our postmodern era. But I think the quote from
Plotinus's THE ONE makes it clear that the same experience can be well
described by ancient philosophers too. Also, as I understand it, he differs
from Pirsig and most others in asserting that mysticism flows "from felt
personal experiences". That's far too vague and could include just about any
kind of experience. I think the mystical experience is more accurately
described as that undifferentiated consciousness, or immediate awareness of
no-thing-ness or in Pirsigian terms, direct awareness of Dynamic Quality. It
is that same pre-intellectual consciousness described in the Jantzen quote
above. "Personal" strikes me as exactly the WRONG word for it. And someone
with a very limited vocabulary might be forgiven if they were to describe
the experience as a feeling, as something felt, but it is quite distinct
from sensuality, emotions, sensations or any of the other things we normally
think of as feelings. Unless overwhelming awe and fascinated terror count as
"felt experience", I don't think that part is right either.
2) If this was all I had to go on, I'd be tempted to say that, for
schleiermacher at least, "felt personal experience" and undifferentiated
consciousness were the same thing. But I happen to know that he was very
much interested in sentiments and emotions, was an anti-intellectual
romantic and was a theologian. It strikes me as likely that "felt personal
experience" is deliberately vague so that any kind of powerful feeling can
be taken as evidence of God or other such sloppiness.
3)I don't think that is an honest or honorable motive. Its seems to me that
he developed an epistemolgy to suit his beliefs, which is backwards.
Sam said:
It seems to me that the above theses are true - although we can argue all of
them, as we no doubt
will - but most importantly, if you substitute Pirsig for Schleiermacher,
value for religion, and DQ
for felt personal experience, then you have something remarkably close to
the MoQ. That's what I
mean by saying that the MoQ and Schleiermacher's ideas share a conceptual
shape, and that's what I
think is so interesting - is Pirsig simply recapitulating Schleiermacher? As
I said in the essay,
I'm not in a position (yet) to answer the question, but the evidence I've
read so far seems
tremendously suggestive.
dmb says:
Substitute value for religion and Dynamic Quality for felt personal
experience? I think that's nearly as wise as putting square pegs in round
holes. But the Jantzen quote is very interesting. Is Pirsig just repeating
the German theologian? I doubt it. I think its just not that much of a trick
to express ancient descriptions in modern terms. Or in putting Eastern
descriptions in Western terms. Its very much like doing a translation. If
you know what the other language and understand what the author is saying,
its not too hard to convert it. As a matter of fact, I think we can see the
very same idea in Plotinus that we see in the Jantzen quote. He isn't
talking about it terms of subjects and objects or undiffentiated
conscousness, but we still see him describe "the One" as "formless" as
"prior to" and "different from" the "things which come from it". Different
terms, same idea...
Thanks,
dmb
P.S. Here's that Plotinus exerpt. Its from a work called THE ONE...
"There must be something prior to all, simple, and different from the things
which are posterior to it, self-existent, unmingled with the things which
come from it, and yet able in another way to be present with the others,
being really one, not something else first then secondarily one, of which it
is false even that it is one; but of this One no descripton nor scientific
knowledge is possible. Indeed it must be said to be beyond 'being'; for if
it were not simple, without any composition and synthesis, and really one,
it would not be a first principle. And it is wholly self-sufficient by
virtue of its being simple and prior to all things. What is not simple
demands those simple elements which are within it, that it may be composed
of them. Such a One must be unique, for if there were another such both
together would constitute a larger unit. For we hold that they are not two
bodies nor is the Primary One a body. For no body is simple, and a body is
subject to generation; it is not an ultimate principle. The ultimate
principle is unoriginated, and being incorpreal and really one it is able to
stand first.
Since substances which have an origin are of some form, and since it is not
any particular form but all, without exception, the first principle must be
formless. And being formless is is not a substance; for substance must be
particular; and a particualr is determinate. But this can not be regarded as
particular, for it would not be a principle, but merely that particular
thing which you may have called it. If then all things are included among
what are generated, which of them will you say is the first principle? Only
what is none of them could be said to stand above the rest. But these
constitute existng things and Being in general. The First Principle then is
beyond Being. To say that it is beyond Being does not assert it to be any
definite thing. It does not define it. Nor does it give it a name. It
applies to it only the appellaton 'not-this'. In doing so it nowhere sets
limits to it. It would be absurd to seek to delimit such a boundless nature.
He who wishes to do this prevents himself from getting upon its track in any
wise, even little by little. But just as he who wishes to see the
Intelligible must abandon all imagery of the perceptible in order to
contemplate what is beyond the perceptible, so he who wishes to contemplate
what is beyond the Intelligible will attain the contemplation of it by
letting go everything intelligible, though this means learning THAT it is,
abandoning the search for WHAT it is. To tell what it is would involve a
reference to what it is not, for there is no quality in what has no
particular character. But we are in painful doubt as to what we should say
of it; so we speak of the ineffable and give it a name, meaning to endow it
with some significance to ourselves so far as we can. Perhaps this name 'The
One' implies merely opposition to plurality. ...But if The One were given
positive content, a name and significantion, it would be less appropriately
designated than when one does not give any name. It may be said that
description of it is carried this far in order that he who seeks it
beginning with that which indicates the simplicity of all things may end by
negating even this, on the ground that it was taken simply as the most
adequate and the nearest description possible for him who used it, but not
even this is adequate to the revelation of that nature, because it is
inaudible, not to be understood through hearing, and if by and sense at all
by vision alone. But if the eye that sees seeks to behold a form it will not
descry even this."
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Mon Dec 27 2004 - 01:24:35 GMT