From: Chuck Roghair (ctr@pacificpartssales.com)
Date: Fri Jan 14 2005 - 03:07:18 GMT
Chin:
On Jan 13, 2005, at 4:36 PM, Phaedrus Wolff wrote:
> Hi Chuck,
>
> Thanks for your reply.
>
> First, let me offer the thought that I am not trying to push
> Cristianity,
> just ask a simple quesiton.
I didn't mean to imply that you were. If I'm understanding you
correctly, yours is a perennial vision. I, at least, find that
interesting. In fact, I think this place has been more interesting in
general since your arrival.
>
> My question is, Is it better to tell a person they are wrong, or show
> them
> they are wrong?
In all honesty, the only choice is just to do what you do. Whatever
others glean from anything, including your actions, is ultimately their
own business.
>
> By the time a truly intelligent kid has reached the 9th grade, they
> have
> been told so many times "No!" emphatically "You are wrong!" without any
> reasoning given other than what is in the books is the truth, and you
> shouldn't question what is in the books, that they rebel against the
> school
> system. The same may hold true for a truly intelligent kid in the
> churches -- "No! What the Bible says is the word of God, and God does
> not
> lie!"
By the time I was in 9th grade I had been inundated with Institutional
Catholic Dogma six days a week (except in the summertime, then it was
once a week) for eight years running with three to go. The final six
or so spent with the realization that it was all a sham and an
incubating resentment at being there against my will.
>
> It's kinda a Richard Pryor type statement, "Are you going to believe
> me? or
> your lying eyes?"
I'm not not familiar with that. Richard Pryor kills me though. He's
almost as funny as Platt.
>
> For the Christian to go to Iraq, and try to force their religious
> views on
> the people of Iraq is wrong. For Pirsig or anyone else to 'Force' their
> views on the culture is just as wrong.
I don't remember Pirsig ever threatening anyone with eternal damnation
or bombing the shit out of those unfortunate enough to live over large
caches of fossil fuel while shouting "Quality is on our side!"
>
> If Quality is the greatest force in the universe, then instead of
> telling
> them they are wrong, you simply show them how Quality is a higher
> quality
> way of looking at things. Quality is just as much a higher quality way
> over
> the fairy tales of science and philsophy as it is the fairy tales of
> the
> Bible. Quality can no more be proven to exist than God, so the
> Christian can
> look at the MOQ as just another set of fairy tales to believe in. Who's
> fairy tales you choose to believe will be in accordance to who's side
> you
> are on -- Who has the best signs yelling "Hooray for our side!"?
Science is constantly questioning itself. Religion is constantly
covering it's tracks. Apparently this God fellow is a being, a
creator, a designer, intelligent I'm told. Quality, I think is more of
a concept. Like Reality and Virtue.
This is the MoQ.org after all. I don't go to
deadguyhangingfromatree.org and heckle the minions.
>
> Is it that God, as with my thoughts on intuition, is too difficult a
> concept
> to deal with in the MOQ? If so, then maybe it would be best to avoid
> trying
> to change the view of the Christians, because if you are going to tell
> them
> they are all stupid, and they believe in fairy tales, they are simply
> going
> to turn around and tell you that it is you who believes in fairy tales.
As far as I'm concerned, God is just too silly a concept. We could
also discuss the monster that hides under my three-year-old daughter's
bed tha my dog and I have to scare off every night before she'll go to
sleep, but I never suggest it as I doubt anyone would take it quite as
seriously as the three of us do.
>
> You may as well try to get the Democrats and Republicans, or the Hell's
> Angels and Outlaws to come together.
Sounds like fun.
>
> If you are going to bring East and West together, you are going to
> have to
> take the highest Quality of Eastern and Western philosophy and Eastern
> and
> Western religion and Eastern and Western politics, and let the DQ
> override
> the SQ.
Or realize, in the end, there is just Q.
>
> If you truly believe in the concept of Quality, then Quality is in,
> before,
> and after the social patterns as much as it is the inorganic and
> biological
> patterns. If the intellect is to be in charge of changing the social
> patterns, then it will take an intellectual psychological view as much
> as
> scientific view to change the thinking of a people who have been
> cutlurally
> and/or neurologically predispositioned to certain predjudices.
I'm not here to improve society, only myself.
>
> I personally feel the Hindus may have the answer. If you believe in
> God, you
> are Hindu. If you are atheist, you are Hindu. If you have a relgion
> built
> upon earth or cosmos or gods, you are Hindu. I could very much imagine
> that
> if you could transport the Native American to India, their sprituality
> would
> be accepted as a part of the Hindu way of life.
>
> The highest Quality intellect is the one that is concerned with
> advancing
> society; not one that holds your ego above the ego of others.
If you truly believe in Quality, when your not talking in terms of the
illusion, there is no ego, only Quality, so I respectfully disagree
with that, Chin. The highest Quality is perfection of self which is a
personal chunk of Quality for each of us.
If you're looking for a marriage of East and West, you've found it.
Quality is so hard to describe because it's indescribable. That's the
main thing. This MoQ is Westernized Zen Buddhism. The more you say
about it the less it becomes like itself the further you get from that
simple point.
To explain it to someone who doesn't get it is difficult if not
impossible.
>
> What you think?
>
> Chin
>
There it is. Thanks for asking.
Best regards,
Chuck
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