From: Ian Glendinning (ian@psybertron.org)
Date: Tue Jan 18 2005 - 21:49:48 GMT
Jo,
I'm offline for a day or two, but my very brief initial response is to point
out (one of my many ) Neil Hannon quotes.
Fate doesn't hang by a wrong or right choice.
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice.
Ian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Maurer" < >
To: < >
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 6:10 PM
Subject: MD Logic, Analolgy, Metaphor
> On 10 January 2005 2:04 AM Ian writes to DMB
>
> DMB
>
> You seem to be saying
> Vague is bad
> (Logically precise) is good ?
> Not sure that is true.
> Less is often more.
>
> Before we destroy it with the analytic knife, I'd like to get at least
> some
> vague idea of what mysticism means. I still have no clue.
>
> Ian
>
>
> Hi Ian, DMB, and all,
>
> Hi Ian, Thank You!! IMO How something is said is more important than what
> is said? I am thinking of logical speech, analogy, and metaphor. Plain
> speech accepts what is observed and experienced. "There are things which
> you have said to me which I do not like. They were not sweet like sugar,
> but bitter like gourds." Chief Ten Bears, Lila Chapter 3.
>
> Analogy accepts the discontinuity of forms, e.g., evolution! Gravity is
> often an analogue for different forces. Metaphor accepts a faith in
> awareness in a model of different moral levels. " I was born on the
> prairie where the wind blew free, and there was nothing to break the light
> of the sun." ibid. The inorganic-organic level model of speech is logical.
> "I want to die there, and not within walls." ibid.
>
> IMO The social level model of speech is metaphor, e.g., the roles in a
> family. No one is quite sure apart from organic generation what the roles
> of father, mother, child etc. mean. Yet social order occurs from an
> acceptance of roles. Metaphor is in the social order. He/she is leader! An
> order is observed. When the metaphor of order is used in the intellectual
> level as a metaphysical tool it becomes dogma. The creation of awareness
> is seen as a higher level than order. Gravity is seen as a lower level
> than order. Feeding is seen as a higher level than gravity, but lower than
> order. IMO This is morality! The assignment of guilt for an action is
> measured in the awareness level of the individual. The proof of awareness
> is action, "by their fruits you will know them." Anarchy in Iraq comes
> from a destruction of an established social order.
>
> IMO If I propose existing levels like in evolution I use a social level
> base. IMO order is the social level. The inorganic, organic, social,
> intellectual levels in the MOQ are metaphors of DQ. There is no inorganic,
> organic, intellectual supreme leader. The periodic table of elements is an
> analogy to the social order. It would seem that an affect on awareness
> would be a more reasonable base for a periodic table of elements.
>
> When metaphor and analogy are combined they evolve, the moral levels
> occur. 'Supreme' has meaning only in the social level order in the same
> way the order family, city, king has meaning. Yet the intellectual level
> is the highest.
>
> IMO Analogy is used to express the mystical acceptance of the levels. The
> term 'like' seems to emphasize the acceptance of different levels. It is
> analogy to use as an explanation of the causes of WW I & II, the struggle
> between the intellectual and social levels. Morality is analogy in terms
> of DQ. However, as analogies, the inorganic, organic, social, and
> intellectual levels are moral levels of quality everyone accepts, as they
> accept the analogy of evolution into moral levels.
>
> Joe
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ian Glendinning" < >
> To: < >
> Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 1:15 AM
> Subject: Re: MD The MOQ and Mysticism 101
>
>
>> DMB
>>
>> You seem to be saying
>> Vague is bad
>> (Logically precise) is good ?
>> Not sure that is true.
>> Less is often more.
>>
>> Before we destroy it with the analytic knife, I'd like to get at least
>> some
>> vague idea of what mysticism means. I still have no clue.
>>
>> Ian
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "David Buchanan" < >
>> To: < >
>> Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 3:18 AM
>> Subject: RE: MD The MOQ and Mysticism 101
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Phaedrus Wolff asked:
>>> If intuition is not DQ, then what is it?
>>>
>>> dmb replies:
>>> Instinct. A hunch. A feeling. Its a vague word and should be avoided by
>>> philosophers for that reason, especially if we are trying to distinguish
>>> instincts and feelings from a mystical experience.
>>>
>>> Wolff:
>>> Just roll a joint instead. Maybe you could join me. It seems at times
>>> you
>>> could use one. ...Burn one and get back to me.
>>>
>>> dmb replies:
>>> Are you saying I should relax? Well, OK, but it doesn't matter how
>>> stress-free I am or how stoned I am, I'll still disagree. Sorry, but I
>>> did
>>> promise as much when you first arrived. Remember?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
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>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>
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