From: Ron Winchester (phaedruswolff@hotmail.com)
Date: Tue Feb 01 2005 - 00:01:25 GMT
Ian;
After some words about the significance of "new physics" in bringing to the
attention of the world a hundred years ago that "objectivity is overrated",
in the next thread, Ron you make a statement using the words "xxxx is
relegated to mere subjectivity". This is the crux for me.
The problem is the words - relegated and mere - say that subjectivity is
somehow inferior, showing the toxic meme of objectivity is preserved in
usage. MoQ was (is) the antidote to that way of thinking - all experiences
are interactions between S & O, and its the interactions that matter.
Neither O nor S is the more important.
Hi Ian,
I don't remember exactly how I addressed subjectivity, but I'm thinking it
was more in response to someone suggesting that someone they had read looked
at things subjectively. Either way it doesn't really matter.
FWIW, I agree with you on this. It is earlier sciences that wouldn't, and
possibly still don't, accept the subjective results well, and I agree the
MOQ addresses this well with the addition of Value (Quality) where
object-first and foremost just can't cover it.
Just clarificaion.
Ron
>From: "Ian Glendinning" <ian@psybertron.org>
>Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
>Subject: Re: MD Pure experience and the Kantian problematic
>Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 10:28:28 -0000
>
>Ron, Platt, Matt DMB n'all ...
>
>Not sure about breakthrough, but at least we're back on page one MoQ
>(and out of that morass of political & religious spin of global affairs)
>So hail to that.
>
>As you (each) seem to go on to say, in my own words ...
>This is very (approximately) "pragmatic" and suggests Pirsig was
>re-organising existing thought into a useful framework, rather than
>inventing something entirely new.
>
>After some words about the significance of "new physics" in bringing to
>the attention of the world a hundred years ago that "objectivity is
>overrated", in the next thread, Ron you make a statement using the words
>"xxxx is relegated to mere subjectivity". This is the crux for me.
>
>The problem is the words - relegated and mere - say that subjectivity is
>somehow inferior, showing the toxic meme of objectivity is preserved in
>usage. MoQ was (is) the antidote to that way of thinking - all experiences
>are interactions between S & O, and its the interactions that matter.
>Neither O nor S is the more important.
>
>Interestingly, I'm reading Searle's latest "Mind" at the moment and he is
>promoting "observer dependent subjectivity and qualitativeness".
>Some hope for mainstream philosophy ?
>
>Ian
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Platt Holden" <pholden@sc.rr.com>
>To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>; <owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk>
>Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 4:12 PM
>Subject: Re: MD Pure experience and the Kantian problematic
>
>
>>Hi Ron, All:
>>
>>Two breakthrough thoughts in your brilliant post:
>>
>>" There is nothing to be experienced except for experience itself."
>>
>>and
>>
>>"DQ does not exist after the fact; after it is experienced."
>>
>>For those who missed it, here's Ron's complete commentary:
>>
>>Platt
>>
>>
>>>The reason I feel it leaves too much unsettled is that before Quantum
>>>Physics, Western Philosophy would not consider anything that was not
>>>object
>>>related. There is a separation of mind and matter, and mind can only
>>>experience matter; anything that is not matter was unreal.
>>>
>>>What was once scientific certainty is now uncertain. Once we split the
>>>atom, and started trying to defince the objects within the atom, we
>>>realized it is not all object at all. Our best 'guess'-timation of what
>>>we
>>>view is only that; a guess. We view what is an object, but doesn't remain
>>>an object. Particles and waves do a dance that is unpredictable, and the
>>>particles and waves do not even remain particles and waves; particles
>>>become waves, and waves, particles.
>>>
>>>Both the subject and object are creations of the mind, and the mind is
>>>not
>>>separate from matter, so there is nothing to be experienced except for
>>>experience itself. There is no object that we focus on, and there is not
>>>subject prior to experience. As opposed to mind and/or matter, Quality
>>>(Value) is is the fundamental element of reality. The mind is no more
>>>than
>>>an evolutionary advancement, and intellect is part of this evolutionary
>>>advancement. We do not create our world by thinking about it, our world
>>>creates our thinking. When I say world, I do not mean earth and rivers,
>>>but
>>>grains of sand to stars, or particles to the black hole, or waves that
>>>extend to the furthest reaches of the universe.
>>>
>>>This is where nothingness comes in. When you strip away the ego and the
>>>cultural beliefs, there is nothing left. This is when we experience; pure
>>>(raw) experience. This is our mysticism; it is our letting go of the
>>>tired
>>>old beliefs that leave us wanting, and needing to justify our thoughts to
>>>that of others who have gone before us. Our beliefs are what keeps us
>>>needy, but we search for reality by asking those who made us needy to
>>>begin
>>>with. Pure experience does not come from an effort to understand, but
>>>from
>>>reality itself. We just have to open up to it.
>>>
>>>DQ and SQ are not separate in an S/O world, as there would be no DQ. Once
>>>DQ is experienced, it is then SQ; the very moment you experience it. To
>>>try
>>>to put it into Kantian terms, SQ is S/O; DQ does not exist after the
>>>fact;
>>>after it is experienced. S/O just points to the experience DQ provided,
>>>which now is real in our thinking, but was never unreal; just our
>>>thinking
>>>was unreal.
>>>
>>>Anyone interested, let me know how bad I screwed this up.
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>
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