From: Ron Winchester (phaedruswolff@hotmail.com)
Date: Thu Feb 03 2005 - 01:13:41 GMT
(earlier)Matt said:
Why can't a Nazi say that fascism and eugenics are the highest intellectual
Quality decisions to advance society?
(earlier) Ron said:
If they understood the MOQ, then they couldn't justify the killing of ideas
for society's benefit. Per the MOQ, a society that kills ideas is evil.
Right?
Matt:
What if the Nazi argues that it is a high Quality idea that a society must
balance good ideas with bad ideas, that it is a bad idea to say that it is
always a bad idea to kill ideas for society's benefit. In other words, if a
Nazi doesn't accept certain interpretations of the MoQ, how do you argue
that the Nazi is wrong? If he doesn't accept certain ideas that you think
are high Quality, how do you have an argument about his degeneracy based on
high Quality ideas?
Ron;
I would listen to his ideas. What is degeneracy to one is not automatically
degeneracy to another. We all have views that to some extent, others would
consider degenerate. In this way, the MOQ already says consider (perceived)
bad ideas as well as good ideas.
I have a thought in this area; just a thought. My question might be what
drives someone like Hitler to the madness, or what we perceive as madness?
Could it be that Hitler was offered knowledge in a capsule?
What I am thinking is that when someone is not challenged intellectually
other than just simply accepting what they are told as ‘The Truth,’ they
work themselves into a corner where their decisions are based on what
someone else might think. Don’t just think of Hitler, but think of the White
Man who could drag an African American behind his truck, or the Rich Man who
feels superior/privileged to the poor man.
What could lead someone to this mentality? What could save someone from this
mentality?
Why would the Nazis believe it to be a high Quality idea? Would it have been
encouragement to look at all things through independent, critical thought? –
or would it be encouragement to look at things through a Nazi view? – of
course, denying any validity to any other people’s thoughts.
The Nazis, KKK, and Jim Jones ‘Told’ their followers what to think. The MOQ
suggests a framework to open the eyes – to open the mind. It does not say
“This is what it is.” – it says “What is Quality?” Maybe this is why Pirsig
cannot ‘Tell’ us what Quality is, as it would then be no better than a
suppressive regime, or a philosophy that is based on Realism or Idealism
exclusively, or any other isms, ists, or ians that claim exclusive right to
what is ‘Right.’ Whatever is ‘Right’ is temporary, and/or relative. It is
not exclusive to any regime, belief, or philosophy. It is not exclusive to
the MOQ. The MOQ is just simply an attempt at pointing to a map to assist in
finding what is Quality – what Quality thinking leads to Quality living
leads to Quality life.
You could have extended this to Jim Jones followers, or Charles Manson
followers, or the members of the KKK. I think the same may still hold true.
Unless you are encouraged to think, intellectually challenged, and accepting
blindly any beliefs of any one, including Pirsig back to the sophists, then
you leave yourself open to degenerate beliefs.
I think the reason is a simple one. It is easier to go through life with
eyes closed. It is easy to allow someone to offer up their truths never
challenging these truths. But, it is also easy to see the world through 'New
eyes' if you allow yourself to. Huh?
>From: "Matt Kundert" <pirsigaffliction@hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>Subject: RE: MD Pure experience and the Kantian problematic
>Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 12:25:21 -0600
>
>Matt said:
>Why can't a Nazi say that fascism and eugenics are the highest intellectual
>Quality decisions to advance society?
>
>Ron said:
>If they understood the MOQ, then they couldn't justify the killing of ideas
>for society's benefit. Per the MOQ, a society that kills ideas is evil.
>Right?
>
>Matt:
>What if the Nazi argues that it is a high Quality idea that a society must
>balance good ideas with bad ideas, that it is a bad idea to say that it is
>always a bad idea to kill ideas for society's benefit. In other words, if
>a Nazi doesn't accept certain interpretations of the MoQ, how do you argue
>that the Nazi is wrong? If he doesn't accept certain ideas that you think
>are high Quality, how do you have an argument about his degeneracy based on
>high Quality ideas?
>
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