Re: MD Pure experience and the Kantian problematic

From: MarshaV (marshalz@charter.net)
Date: Wed Feb 09 2005 - 21:21:14 GMT

  • Next message: Ron Winchester: "Re: MD Pure experience and the Kantian problematic"
    At 11:30 AM 2/9/2005 -0700, you wrote:

    Scott:
    A fair request, since I confused things by moving from the formless to form. In the first statement ("Intellect, Consciousness, and Quality are all names for the same (non-)thing." ) I am aligning myself with mystics such as Eckhart and Nagarjuna, whose names for the same (non-)thing are "the godhead" and "emptiness" respectively. So I am saying that Intellect, Consciousness, and Quality are also names for this. As such they are all pointers to this (non-)thing, meaning that if we ask "what is Consciousness (or Intellect, or Quality)", the answer is the same: they are undefinable since they are not "made up" of something else, but instead are that which "makes up" all the form with which we are accustomed to answering "what is..." sort of questions. So I am sying that there are not three (non-)things, but one which we can call by different names.

    Marsha:  Your saying that the formless can be called Quality, Intellect, Consciousness, Godhead, Emptiness and possibly Will.  And the formless cannot be described because it is that which makes up form, so these words should stand without definition.  Is that right?

     Scott:
    But if we shift to considering form (things, events, patterns), then we can say of each event, etc. that there is consciousness, there is value, and there is intellect. But again, one cannot say of the consciousness (or value, or intellect) what it is in terms of something else, so there is no way to *define* consciousness (or value or intellect) as it shows up in form. We can only use other words that are equally undefinable (e.g., awareness, meaning, reason). But are there three things or one? I say again there is just one. There is not one part of an event that is its value, and another that is its intellect, or a third that is consciousness. So how is it that we have these three words? I don't know. All I know is that I don't know how to distinguish them except by using other words that are just as in need of distinguishing.  But it is an interesting thing to think about.

    Marsha:  In the realm of form (things, events, patterns) three things are present: intellect, consciousness and value.  (Not quality?  You've substituted value for quality.  They can have different meanings.  Are you sure you want to change quality to value?)  And you've added other words: awareness, meaning and reason.  You've further stated that in the realm of forms all these words, too, are undefinable.   And finally you state that these three (six) words are describing one thing, event or pattern.  Are you saying because they are describing one thing, event or pattern (form), they have the same meaning.  What exactly are you saying? 

    While it might be interesting to think about, in my opinion it doesn't follow that you have enough clarity of thought to attack MOQ. 

    Scott:
    Bear in mind that I am not saying that this is how things "really are". This is a vocabulary that I have found provisionally useful for making sense of what certain mystics and others have said, in conjunction with my own thinking about consciousness, intellect, and value. (And also, I don't say that there are just three such names -- one might add Will to the list, for example, and others).

    Again, why have you switched to the word value???  The Metaphysics of Quality is about Quality, not value. 

    You did state, "My concern is that the MOQ's philosophy of mysticism has flaws. There are better philosophies of mysticism.  Further, I think that these flaws lead the MOQ to a thoroughly inadequate view of Intellect."  In your theory aren't Quality and Intellect interchangeable?  Isn't intellect, in your theory, a word without definition?
     
    What Philosophy of Mysticism do you prefer?? 

    Marsha 





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