From: ian glendinning (psybertron@gmail.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 2005 - 06:55:39 GMT
Arlo,
Strange that you should change the title to include "punk" ...
...given that I posted this response to the original prompted by Ant's
response ro Marsha, but for some reason it didn't appear ?
Anyway - I was identifying with the positive dynamism of the more
overtly "offensive" rebellious musical genres ...
Ant, and Marsha,
(SOM Philosophy = Enlightenment philosophy - I like that summary.)
Anyway - the problem here is a false dichotomy surely ?
Why worry about the binary oposition of Nihilism and Ultimate Purpose ?
Ant McWatt notes:
Well, this is where the MOQ should help for while it
agrees with nihilism that there is no static purposes or ends in the
universe, it recognises that there is a Dynamic one. An ongoing creative
dance that – on the whole - is becoming ever more sophisticated and
wondrous ... I often did without TV for many months and after a
couple of weeks didn't miss it. The Student Union Bar was usually a far
more Dynamic experience! :-)
I say,
I completely identify with that view, but why dynamic "purpose" - why
not just dynamic "fact of life" ? People need purposes, but why does
the world have to have one ?
Incidentally ... I've spent the last few days in a hotel room, and
haven't switched the TV on once. I did spend a night in a local
live-music bar full mainly of Goths (those worshippers of Nihil, it
might be said) and came away envigorated with the dynamism. Can't beat
it.
Regards,
Ian
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:02:12 -0500, Arlo Bensinger <ajb102@psu.edu> wrote:
> Ham
>
> > In music it has taken the form
> >of "punk rock" whose chaotic song patterns and morbid or obscene lyrics
> >depict life's meaninglessness and amorality.
>
> While you make many good points about nihilism, the punk is me has to take
> some umbridge at this inaccurate categorization. Rock music has its origins
> in social protest of injustice and inequality. It became a caricaturish
> mockery of itself when it became commoditized and embraced by the very
> establishment it sought to criticize. "Punk" was a movement in rock to
> strip it of its ridiculous commercial veneer and reclaim it as a form of
> social rebellion.
>
> In this way, "punk" is not nihilistic. Punk is counter-cultural. You may,
> of course, support being a good sheep and embracing social norms, whatever
> they may be, without any critical lens to the structuring nature of social
> "normalcy". And, if that is they embodiment of anti-nihilism, then perhaps
> that is your choice. But do not confuse rebellion against norms with nihilism.
>
> I think a much better "example" of nihilism and music would be John Cage.
> There is your "chaotic song patterns". The Sex Pistols, The Ramones, The
> Clash... all of these bands use song patterns. To suggest otherwise is
> simply foolish. As to "morbid and obscene lyrics", I can only believe that
> you've never really listened to many of the bands you call "punk". Of
> course, the Beatles and Elvis were "obscene" as well. So, we're back to
> painting labels on anything that challenges or rebels against social norms.
> In this case, you'd likely have to lump all of "rock music", possibly
> anything non-classical as even impromptu jazz and blues borders on your
> "chaotic sound patterns" (as Platt likely does) into this nihilistic category.
>
> To sum, to rebel against social injustice or normative activity is hardly
> nihilistic.
>
> Just an aside...
>
> Arlo
>
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