From: max demian (oikoumenist@hotmail.com)
Date: Tue Mar 15 2005 - 19:50:04 GMT
Hi Ian,
When I asked my questions, i too thought of lila, but was more interested
in something not reflex or instinct yet still an instance prior to
mediation. perhaps something more sublime. More like a zen experience that
precludes definition and categorization. Aristotle said that our experiences
are instantly pushed into categories and heirarchies so that we know what we
are to think. I guess i am wondering if there is an experience moment that
is not immediately pushed into catagories? Or, what about Saussier's dictum
(modified) that we only know what we experience by what we are not
experiencing? Can there be an experience momnet prior to any understanding
moment?
I like the idea that past experiences are sublimated by the present
experience, instead of present experience being sublimated by remembering
past experiences.
I am wondering about Zen masters and schitzophrenic realities and
experiences without any definition.
Thanks for your reply
max
>From: ian glendinning <psybertron@gmail.com>
>Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>Subject: Re: MD Whither "direct," "pure," and "immediate"?
>Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 12:57:08 +0800
>
>Dan,
>
>I tried to make a point which was maybe missed ...
>
>There are many levels of "indirection" between the phenomenon and the
>consciousness - it's not just a matter of direct or indirect.
>
>The flesh on your finger tip burns on the surface of the hot stove,
>whether your hand is connected to your body / brain or not, let alone
>whether your are rational and conscious.
>
>Between the primary sensory organ, and conscious / aware / rational
>levels of decision to act there are many levels of delegated sensation
>and action. In the hot stove case, there will be reflex-like actions
>BEFORE the "F**k that was hot !" sensation or the "damn, some idiot
>left the stove on" rationlisation. In the
>driving-home-whilst-avoiding-other-traffic-mode, the brain will find
>an autopilot, below the aware / rational level of consciousness to do
>95% of the processing and acting - not quite a hard-wired spinal /
>brain-stem reflex, but a learned level of delegation somwhere in the
>grey matter.
>
>If we introduce mediation between the phenomena and the human, like
>the TV, and the possibility of production and editing in between, then
>we are simply extending the levels of indirection.
>
>At the other end of the scale, even when the "signals" reach (some
>part of) the brain - we could debate the location of the sensations,
>and the existnce of qualia, etc, etc.
>
>The reason for dragging that out is simply to warn us to to get too
>precious about exactly which point Pirsig was drawing his line between
>direct and indirect. All we know is that conditioned, self-reflective,
>rational analysis was above the line, the primary sensory signal
>generator was below. There are a million onion-skins in between, and
>Pirsig did not consider or analyse any of these.
>
>Ian
>
>On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:07:01 -0600, Dan Glover <daneglover@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
> > Hello everyone
> >
> > >From: "max demian" <oikoumenist@hotmail.com>
> > >Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
> > >To: moq_discuss@moq.org
> > >Subject: RE: MD Whither "direct," "pure," and "immediate"?
> > >Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:37:03 -0700
> > >
> > >Hello Matt, Dan, all…
> > >
> > >I don't really know where this string has been in the past, but I had
>an
> > >idea or question after reading the last couple of posts:
> > >
> > >Is it possible to have an event that is experienced prior immediate
> > >mediation? What about an event that is not immediately mediated?
> >
> > Hi Max
> >
> > I assume that you've read Lila? If so, then the hot stove analogy comes
>to
> > mind: "He does not think, "This stove is hot," and then make a rational
> > decision to get off. A "dim apprehension of he knows not what" gets him
>off
> > Dynamically. Later he generates static patterns of thought to explain
>the
> > situation." (Lila, page 133-134)
> >
> > I'm in the middle of a wonderfully complex and very difficult book
>(which
> > Ian recommended) called Zen and the Brain by Dr. James Austin. I highly
> > recommend it too. It seems that pain is not generated at the site of the
> > injury but rather in specific parts of the brain that correspond to site
>of
> > the injury. This is one reason why I tend to say that experience is
>never
> > direct for a flow through the brain seems to generate experience, not
>the
> > experience itself. But I could be wrong, as my old friend Roger used to
> > say...
> >
> > >
> > >In the spirit of Dan's idea of second hand experience, I thought of
>another
> > >instance where direct experience is even further removed. In reality T
>V,
> > >not only is 'reality' an orchestrated reality, but also the producers
> > >choose what 'reality' is shown on T V before it is even experienced by
>the
> > >viewer.
> >
> > My family makes fun of my tendency to read and write rather than watch
>tv. I
> > don't mind. I understand that culturally we are a tv watching nation
>here in
> > the USA. I've heard of reality tv of course but I've never watched so I
> > don't think I'm qualified to comment but your thought sounds about
>right.
> >
> > Thank you for your comments,
> >
> > Dan
> >
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> >
> >
>
>
>
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