From: ian glendinning (psybertron@gmail.com)
Date: Wed Mar 16 2005 - 00:25:20 GMT
Ham,
You only give the geocities ISP link - not to the article ?
Primacy of existence over knowledge - yes, but.
(Knowledge / conciousness / quality are part of existence, ontologically.)
Can't wait to see the article.
Ian
On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:00:30 -0500, hampday@earthlink.net
<hampday@earthlink.net> wrote:
> DMB, Scott and all MOQers--
>
> On 3/13, Scott asked:
> > Was there consciousness before the biological level came into being?
>
> Dmb answered:
> > ...the quotes (now below) answer your question. Yes, there is
> consciousness
> > before the biological level. The biological level is a construct of the
> > intellect, which is generated by a prior experience...
> >
> > "In the MOQ empirical experience begins with Quality which generates
> > intellectual patterns. One of these intellectual patterns is named
> 'senses,'
> > but this pattern is derived from the study of anatomy and is not primary
> in
> > the actual empirical process."
>
> Now this "patterns & levels" nonsense does not answer Scott's question, and
> anyone who thinks otherwise is lost in a wordgame called "Pirsig Says".
> Pardon my cynicism, but I've followed these discussions for almost two years
> now, and have yet to see a definitive answer to fundamental questions like
> this one.
>
> In the interest of clarifying the metaphysical issue being contested here,
> may I offer an alternative solution?
>
> I refer all of you to Anton Thorn's website at http://www.geocities.com
> (ref: "Metaphysical Primacy"). Regardless of how you view Ayn Rand's
> objectivism (or my own "subjectivism"), your reaction to this essay is
> critical to the points being raised in this forum, and I for one would be
> most interested in what you all say about it. For those who need more
> persuasion, the abstract reads as follows:
>
> "The issue of metaphysical primacy is defined and explained, and the
> metaphysical primacy of existence is validated. The relationship of the
> Objectivist axioms and the primacy of existence to knowledge is
> explained. Finally, the reversal of the primacy of existence, which is
> the primacy of consciousness, is briefly examined and the basic
> performative inconsistency of theism is exposed. The piece concludes with a
> simple challenge to theists."
>
> Thorn's clearly-worded essay is well worth the review of anyone interested
> in philosophy. And where you side on this fundamental issue will reveal
> more about the MOQ belief system and its proponents than any question
> answered in "patterns & levels" semantics. Consider it my "challenge" to
> you all.
>
> Thanks, folks. I'll be eagerly awaiting your responses.
>
> Essentially yours,
> Ham
>
>
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