From: Arlo J. Bensinger (ajb102@psu.edu)
Date: Tue Mar 22 2005 - 03:15:40 GMT
[Since this gets long, I break it into Parts II and III]
In Part I, I summed all the points and critical arguments Platt has responded to
with denials, rhetorical shifts and an inability to respond to any critical
charge to his (and Bloom's) vapid claims.
Platt responded to my original post (reprinted and summed in Part I) with only
denials and shifts. To prove this, my point by point follows:
Here's my point-by-point reply.
> Arlo writes:
> > (1) Last time you explicitly stated it was the "overt sexual lyrics" that
"proved" (using Bloom's vapid logic) the "degeneracy of rock".
>
> Wrong.
Right. On March 19th, Platt responded to my post saying "If you can you find
such blatantly sexual lyrics as this ever sung by Frank Sinatra or Peggy Lee,
let me know".
This post challenged Platt on why Peggy Lee's "Fever" was exempt from his call
of "degeneracy". This makes the explicit statement that "overty sexual lyrics"
are degenerate, but strong sexual innuendo and reference, as in "Fever", are
"not degenerate".
So, rather than deal with the critical charge, Platt attempts to deny what he
said.
Please note that Platt has not attempted to reply to (1) why "overt" sexual
themes (blatantly sexual lyrics) are degenerate, while sexually suggestive
lyrics (such as "Fever") are not, or (2) nor why non-sexual themed songs are
still "degenerate".
For the record, then Platt, is it "overt sexual lyrics" or not? Are sexually
suggestive songs not degenerate? And non-sexual rock songs exempt? Please
clarify these positions.
> > (2) You explicitly stated that songs with strong sexual innuendo or
> > suggestiveness were "okay" by saying Peggy Lee was not degenerate at all.
>
> Wrong.
Right. See above. Furthermore, you stated (in defense of sexually suggestive
songs (such as "Fever") or music that promotes sexual promiscuity such as
Sinatra on March 18th, "One big difference: Frank and Peggy could sing, and
Bach and Mozart could compose music." This clearly indicates that "degeneracy"
is allowed if the person "can sing".
Please note that Platt has not responded to my question as to why The Clash's
"White Man in Hammersmith Palais" is degenerate, while Peggy Lee's "Fever" is
not. According to the "logic" he presented to date, this a completely
contradictory position.
Please clarify this position, Platt. Are sexually themed songs permissable if
the artist can "sing"? For the record, if sexual themes and promotion of sexual
promiscuity are the reason for "degeneracy", why do you exempt Peggy Lee? Is it
because "she can sing"?
> > (3) To "prove your point" you provided a quote of sexual lyrics from one > >
song by Peta Pablo, then patted yourself on the back for this "logic", > >
despite my challenge that it was an indefensible generalization.
>
> Wrong.
Right. On March 19th, Platt responded to a challenge that not all rock was
sexual. He replied with a quote from "Pete Pablo - "Freak-a-Leak" video", and
then in the very next sentance said this quote proved Bloom was "right on".
Laughable logic, to be sure. But right there in the permanent media of the
list.
What's the matter Platt, are you too old to remember that the list is permanent?
> > (4) I challenged you that Bloom's (and your own) argument was critically
vacant, specifically on two charges, (a) it lacks any critical definition, for
example, would Bluegrass, Salsa or Polka, or Jazz also be "degenerate"?
>
> Like Satchmo said when asked to define jazz, "If they don't know, you
> can't tell 'em."
Platteral shift. Platt please clarify, which of these musical genres are also
"degenerate": Bluegrass, Salsa, Polka, Jazz, (and let me add) Country -Western.
Why?
For the record, is only "rock" degenerate? If it has nothing to do with the
lyrics, as you suggested last time through in contradiction to your original
post, and it is the "beat", how to you critically separate "rock" from Salsa?
Bluegrass? Jazz? Swing? Country? Is it the metre? Is it the instruments? Is it
the tempo? The chords?
> > and (b) it lacks contextual relation with other media, for
> > example, why are "overtly sexual themes" in some rock songs enough for you
to launch into a tirade against "rock", but "overtly sexual themes" in
> > literature (Henry Miller, Anais Nin, de Sade) or art (nudes) not making you
launch into tirades against books and painting.
>
> Irrelevant considering the ubiquity of rock.
Platteral shift. Please clarify why you condemn "rock" for sexual themes in some
songs, and yet refuse to make the charge in other media. Or are you suggesting
that "rock" is more "ubiquitous" than books? Can you defend this position, or
are you hoping to deny in it later posts too?
Please answer the question.
> > (5) I offered you the "out" of making your charge be against things that are
"vulgar sexual references", which would place you square in step with the
Victorians. Your entire "argument" is a ventriliquation of Rigel's described
Victorian prudery, in fact. Are you saying, then, that you admit to siding with
Victorian prudery? Note that this still does not relieve the gaps of critical
logic in your argument, but it does bring clarity to what you are attacking.
>
> Show me where Rigel said anything about rock.
Platteral shift. Rigel clearly promotes sexual prudery in the dialogue, which
underlies your argument. Please clarify, are "sexual themes" in literature, art
and music "okay" in the reference is not "vulgar" in the Victorian sense? If
not, in what other way do you critically divide "acceptable sexual reference"
(such as Henry Miller or Peggy Lee) from "degenerate sexual reference"?
Point: Is Pirsig's Lila an example of "degenerate" media because it describes a
graphic and vivid sexual encounter, out of wedlock, with a bar whore, an
encounter which Pirsig does not apologize for or state "was wrong".
Is the overt sexual reference okay "because Pirsig can write"? If Pete Pablo
wrote a song about Pirsig's fucking a bar whore, would that be "degenerate"?
Why? Is it because Pirsig includes non-sexual referneces as well? Why then is
The Clash's "White Man in Hammersmith Palais" degenerate as it contains
absolutely no sexual references?
> > (6) You have, to remind everyone again, stated explicitly that strong
> > sexual innuendo or suggestiveness is no cause for concern. I had mentioned
two posts ago Sinatra and Lee (specifically her "Fever"), and all the sexual
activity it encouraged, and how many teens "gave it up" after being crooned by
the Chairman or Miss Lee. Your response was that there was nothing wrong with
their songs, because there lyrics were not overt like Pete Pablo.
>
> Wrong.
Right. See above and the March 18th post. In my charge to the sexual themes and
innuendo, as well as the promiscuity created by their music, of Sinatra and Lee
you state "If you can you find such blatantly sexual lyrics as this ever sung
by Frank Sinatra or Peggy Lee, let me know."
Are you now saying that there is something degenerate about Sinatra and Peggy
Lee for their sexual innuendo and suggestiveness, and for the promiscuity they
created among teens of the time (and now)? If no, why not?
My point by point continues in Part III.
Arlo
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Tue Mar 22 2005 - 06:15:20 GMT