From: Sam Norton (elizaphanian@kohath.wanadoo.co.uk)
Date: Sat Apr 09 2005 - 10:00:03 BST
Hi DMB, thanks for this, which is really interesting (especially the bit
about Orpheus and the alphabet). But before I come back at length, is there
a version on-line of the Greek myth (rather than the Roman parody) (or you
can point me to a book which gives it). I must confess that the dominant
telling of the story in my mind is Neil Gaiman's in the Sandman, but that
seems to follow the 'Roman' version quite closely.
Cheers
Sam
"The intelligent man who is proud of his intelligence is like the condemned
man who is proud of his large cell." Simone Weil
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Buchanan" < >
To: < >
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2005 2:00 AM
Subject: RE: MD Orpheus
> Sam and all:
>
> Sam Norton said to dmb:
> Let's run through the Orpheus bit rapidly: child of gods, gifted
> musically,
> falls in love with Eurydice, she dies, he pursues her in the underworld,
> he
> loses her again, he is torn apart by the ? bacchanalians? So: Orpheus goes
> in to the underworld when he is still alive; he goes to achieve something
> for himself; he doesn't achieve it; he *then* commits a form of suicide.
>
> dmb replies:
> Well, it might just strike you as some kind of trick if you've never heard
> this one before, but the standard version of the myth comes down to us
> from
> the Romans, not the Greeks, and it is a PARODY of the original. In the
> original version he does not fail. I would also point out that his
> "musical"
> gifts are actually spiritual gifts. Music is just a metaphor. The idea
> behind his musical genius is that he knows the song of the universe, not
> just that he's some kind of rock star. He sings of the geneology of the
> Gods, the origins of the universe and stuff like that. And I can see how a
> person might conclude the Orpheus journey into the underworld was a
> selfish
> act, but again Eurydice is best understood as a metaphor rather than
> merely
> a girlfriend or bride. In Ovid's parody, Orpheus is torn apart by
> followers
> of Dionysus, jealous women who didn't like the idea of becoming
> vegetarians.
> As Peter Kingsley tells it, however, the crime that got him killed was
> very
> much like the one that Jesus was supposed to have died for. Orpheus had a
> mystical experience and saw that Apollo, the sun god, was also the god of
> the night. It was a kind of sedition too.
>
> Sam continued:
> With Jesus: child of God, gifted (religiously), teaches and heals various
> people (not a single object of love), is executed by the state for
> sedition,
>
> goes into the underworld, rises from the dead. So: Jesus goes into the
> underworld when he is dead; he goes to achieve something for other people;
> he achieves it; he then ascends into heaven.
>
> dmb says:
> Here I would point out that the parallels make a great deal more sense
> when
> both myths are read as metaphors for the mystical experience we are each
> supposed to have. The parallels really begin to break down when we compare
> a
> mystical Orpheus to the theological Christ. I think we're looking at
> apples
> and oranges when we get to the notion that Christ was saving the whole
> world
> while Orphues just wanted his girl back. The parallels breakdown when we
> compare Ovid's parody to church dogma. But its a different story when we
> look at them both as myths. Myths are multivalent and never so clear cut,
> but they are also more pure than the literature that follows.
>
> Sam added parenthetically:
> {I'm not trying to say there are no parallels, just that they're not a
> strong as you suggest}
>
> dmb says:
> Right. And I'm not trying to say they are identical in every way. But I am
> convinced that theses two myths, as well as many, many others, express a
> perennial truth. I'm saying that this message has been expressed in so
> many
> ways, in so many cultures, that one would be a fool not to take notice of
> what that message is, or rather what those messages are.
>
> Sam said:
> With Phaedrus: not a child of God, gifted (intellectually), teaches
> students
>
> (not a single person), is rejected by the authorities and given ECT, his
> 'personality' vanishes (into the underworld), he is then 'resurrected'.
> So:
> Phaedrus goes into the underworld when he is dead; he discovers something
> important and achieves it; and then returns to share it (and the end of
> ZMM
> is an ascension of sorts - you can sort of tell these things).
>
> dmb says:
> On top of what I've already said, it seems to me that all three can be
> seen
> as spiritual reformers. Each of them wanted to fix the problem. Each of
> them
> of inspired to make these improvements by a spiritual experience. One
> could
> say the same about the Buddha too. In that sense, they are all healers and
> world redeemers.
>
> Sam said:
> In particular, I think that the crucifixion of Christ and the ECT on
> Phaedrus resemble each other much more closely than either resembles
> Orpheus
>
> being torn apart by the bachhanalians. With the first two you have the
> clash
>
> between institutions of social authority and an individual conscience (you
> could describe them both as a clash between the third and fourth level, if
> you let go of 'intellect' as the description of the fourth level). Whereas
> with Orpheus there is no social/individual clash, there is simply the
> individual tragedy - which is, more or less, self-inflicted.
>
> dmb says:
> A self-inflicted personal tragedy? No, even in the parody Orpheus is
> ripped
> apart for his attempts to reform Dionysian rituals. Even in the parody he
> is
> attacked by the authoritiys, by those who are resistant to change and his
> severed head continues to make prophecies despite the efforts to shut him
> up. In the origianl Orpheus gets into trouble with the authorities for
> less
> entertaining reasons, but it is still of case of one individual reformer
> going up against the status quo. As I see it, all three share that in
> common.
>
> Thanks,
> dmb
>
> P.S. One more thing that occured to me about five minutes after I sent the
> last one on this topic. Another thought-provoking similarity between
> Orpheus
> and Christ has to do with language. Christ is said to be the word made
> flesh
> and Orpheus is credited with inventing the alphabet. Again, if we take
> this
> literally or if we compare a mythical truth to a theological truth we are
> going to be comparing apples and oranges. As mythical statements they are
> very much the same; both Orpheus and Christ represent the perfection or
> culmination of language in some sense. I just thought that was curious.
>
>
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