From: Mark Steven Heyman (markheyman@infoproconsulting.com)
Date: Sat Apr 09 2005 - 21:13:53 BST
On 9 Apr 2005 at 12:37, Platt Holden wrote:
msh:
Hear's the deal. No one knows if the laws of physics apply in every
corner of the universe. Scientists assume they do in order to land
spacecraft on distant moons. The fact they are able to land
spacecraft on distant moons is, in turn, very strong evidence of the
validity of their principles. If making these assumptions resulted
in constant failure, the assumptions would quickly be changed. This
is what is meant by the pragmatic acceptance of scientific
principles.
Is one's belief in God or Heaven arrived at in the same manner? Are
such beliefs altered, or dropped, in light of contradictory
evidence?
platt:
Your assumption is that the physical world is the entire world and
that no evidence is permitted other than the materially measurable.
msh says:
Anyone who is able to actually register what I say knows that I make
no such assumption. I've written about my knowledge of reality's non-
physical aspects numerous times.
platt:
You are an acolyte in the faith-based religion called scientism.
msh says:
Since our argument involves the question of whether or not science is
faith-based, your comment, as usual, does nothing more than assume
your conclusion.
platt:
If anything, secular demonization of religious belief is fear-based
and fear-driven by those who desperately wish to claim the moral
high ground for themselves.
< snip some name calling and off-point distractions re how some
governments, for reasons of prower, not religion, brutalize large
portions of their citizenry...>
platt:
Finally, given science's faith in the principle that the whole
universe arose from nothing, resurrection seems infinitely
reasonable.
msh says:
Please name a scientist who has expressed his or her faith in this
principle. A verifiable quote in context would be nice.
"Well, I didn't promise to provide the answers to life, the universe,
and everything, but I have at least given a plausible answer to the
question I started out with: What happened before the big bang? The
answer is: Nothing." - Paul Davies, physicist, "What Happened Before
the Big Bang."
msh:
This is your idea of a quote in context? Anyone who actually reads
Davies' essay will see that one of his his arguments, based on
quantum physics and cosmology, is that there is nothing unscientific
about the idea that the universe arose from nothing. He writes:
"Even if we don't have a precise idea of exactly what took place at
the beginning, we can at least see that the origin of the universe
from nothing need not be unlawful or unnatural or unscientific. In
short, it need not have been a supernatural event."
Since Davies' belief stems from his understanding of physics, and is
supported by math, logical argument, and evidence, it is not a faith-
based belief. Here's a link, for anyone who wants to read more than
a quote out of context.
http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/big-bang.html
platt:
Now, suppose you give me a verifiable quote of scientist who claims
to know what happened before the Big Bang. :-)
msh says:
Sure. If you take the time to actually read the whole essay
mentioned above, rather than just the last paragraph, you might be
able to understand that it's perfectly reasonable to believe that
nothing happened before the big bang. No faith required.
However, my preferred answer is that the question is scientifically
meaningless because the big bang singularity was the beginning of
space and time. I don't think anyone can have a scientific opinion
about what happened before the Big Bang. There is no BEFORE.
What happened before the BB, what caused it? One of the reasons
religions are invented, and keep going and going and going, is that
most people are uncomfortable with not having answers to questions
like these.
Personally, I find an answer-less condition kind of interesting and
peaceful at the same time.
Best,
Mark Steven Heyman (msh)
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