From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Sun May 01 2005 - 22:25:03 BST
Mark, Arlo and all:
Mark Steven Heyman said:
Actually, I think you're not all that wrong to put Robertson in the
same neighborhood with the REALLY bad guys, the list of whom I notice
is lacking the names of several well-qualified American presidents
and their henchmen. Though Robertson has relatively little power,
the enslavement of similar minds is the first step toward the
elimination of minds not similar. It's not as big a jump as one
might at first imagine.
dmb replies:
Right. In fact, Evangelical and Fundamentalists believe that the world will
end very soon and this apocalypse includes a kind of cosmic genocide wherein
everyone excpet themselves will be damned to hell. Then they will be the
only ones left on a purified earth and will live in peace for a thousand
years? It actually bears a striking resemblance to Hilters dream. This is
the giant talking and no culture is immune. I mean, one of Pirsig's
assertions is that the impulse to destroy alien cultures is a feature of the
social level, one that has only recently been called into question. And I
mean "recently" in an historical sense. As I understand it, the moral qualms
we have about such things has been coming on for a long time and traces the
rise and development of the intellectual level. As I understand it, the
impulse to genocide and war is a vestige of our evolutionary history. It
goes back to a time when weapons were less deadly and when such narrowness
of loyalty actually made sense in terms of survival. And these evolutionary
layers are within us all. But we can say that guys like Pat are "retarded"
in their development and this is why intellect looks like a threat to them.
msh continued:
The dichotomies are real, but, unless one side or the other has real
power, the schism is nothing more than sibling bickering. It's
office politics, you know, small minds whispering round the water
cooler. Nothing much happens until power starts taking sides, until
the guy who hires and fires starts internalizing the gossip. Or
until the guy with power sees that office politics provides the
perfect distraction while he cleans out the safe. It's highly useful
for the neocons (our currently entrenched Power) to have the
Christians hate the Muslims while the Muslims hate the Jews while the
Jews hate the Muslims. Hatred fuels violence, and violence builds
empires. It is a simple, and as horrifying, as that.
dmb:
I'd quibble a bit. It seems to me that the quest for power is almost never a
matter of seeking power for its own sake. Sure, there is always vanity and
ambition involved in human affairs but I think its best to realize that most
people are sincere about their values and seek power to protect and
perpetuate those things. I grew up in a Pat Robertson kind of church and I'm
here to testify. These people have always wanted to do what they are now
doing. We might see it as a Chisto-fascist move toward theocracy but, I
swear to God, they really think its about restoring goodness and decency.
This sincerely held view is exploited by politicians and propagandists, but
they do so precisely because it has real resonance among those dominated by
social level values. This is why they feel so negatively toward any person
or institution that is dominated by intellectual values. Its a threat. They
want power to protect themselves and turn back the evolutionary clock. I
think you can see this in the news every day. In short, I think there is a
real war underneath all the bullshit and the outcome matters.
msh said:
It's quite clear to me that anti-intellectualism is as
prevalent now as it was in Nazi Germany. College professors are not
being killed, yet, but we are seeing an undeniable effort to silence
them and that, my friends, is the beginning.
dmb replies:
Right. Franco's Spanish fascism began in the '30s and went on until his
death in 1975. There were no gas chambers. Fascism comes in many flavors, at
least one for every nation. In each case it will be an exaggerated form of
the particular culture in which it arises. We see how Italy's brand involved
an attempt to recapture the glory of Rome and how Germany's brand involved
nordic myths and the divinity of Aryan blood. And when you look at the
American religious right you see the same sort of thing. They want to
restore the original intentions of the founding fathers, which is all about
God's freedom and God's plan for the country as humanity's salvation. You
heard it in the last inaugural address. See, bad guys don't know they're bad
guys. In their world, they sincerely believe they're the heros who are
setting things right.
Its a little harder for me to get a handle on Bin Laden, but I think its
safe to say "Osama" is the Arabic word for it. What makes them bad guys is
not determined by cultural pride or national interest. If that were the
case, then I would simply choose American fascism. What makes them bad guys
is not that they pushing obsolete and unevolved values, although that may be
true too. What makes them the bad guys is that, in each case, there defence
of the older forms made them an enemy of intellectual values, which include
such things as democracy and human rights.
Arlo said:
Stalin's tyranny was not "intellectual" governing, it was social power. And
this is where it gets back to Pirsig (for me). There are real attempts at
"intellectual" governing throughout modern times, from Canada to Sweden to
Denmark to New Zealand, even the foundational basis for American government.
Pirsig criticized the economic orientations of these other countries for
closing the door (to various degrees) to free market dynamism. We've been
down
that road, so that's old list stuff.
dmb says:
Right. Pirsig's distinction is useful in explaining these political
conflicts only to the extent that this history is understood in the first
place. Stalin wasn't Hilter's opposite except at the most superficial level,
labels. Stalin did not represent the Communist revolution, he was proof that
the revolution failed. Stalin was the most powerful Czar to ever sit on the
Russion throne. Socialist Republics, my ass! Some would say that it was
Trotsky's ouster than proved the revolution's failure, but nobody can now
doubt that Stalin's Russia had much resemblance to Communism as Marx
concieved it or as Marxists have understood it. (I was a history major and
know it as a theory of history more than anything else.) In any case, it
seems they are still working on having their revolution over there. And then
there are the neocon contras here at home...
Arlo said:
But this is where, politically, I see the greatest evidence of the battle
between the "intellectual" and "social" levels. America, under Bush and with
spokespeople such as Platt, are retreating with force into the previous
static
social patterns, and in their retreat are doing everything possible to scare
and villify anything that challenges these old static social codes.
dmb says:
Yep. Its been creeping up on us for at least 25 years and just when they
gain control of all three branches and have a nice propaganda machine in
place, wham! They have exploited the crimes of 9/11 all too well. It plays
right into their hands. Its was the kind of collective national wounded
pride that made everybody want to pray and then prey. Now we have the head
of justice who is ok with torture, our chief diplomat has anger management
issues, a known embezzeler and spy is in charge of Iraq's oil and his son is
in charge of the money, we have a network of secret prisons all over the
world, and oh, congress and the President might stop by you place to make a
life and death personal decision for you or to tell you how to make whoopy.
blah, blah blah. I don't think any needs to wonder what American fascism
would look like. It doesn't take much imagination to see how it could get if
things continue like this much longer. I'd remind you that Pirsig's
description of the culture as headed back to the last static latch is dated,
he was refering to the Reagan era and that those guys are back with a
vengance now. Reagan was a genius and prince compared to this guy and that's
really saying something about this guy.
But doesn't it also seem like these guys are being revealed for what they
really are lately? Aren't there signs that the spell is just about broken? I
got kicked out of Wizard school for wishful thinking, so maybe its just that
again. Sigh.
Thanks.
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