From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Fri May 06 2005 - 15:05:46 BST
Arlo
Platt (previously)
> > Any thoughts? What basis for a social pattern of morality other than
> > offered by Judeo-Christianity would you suggest? Should we all become
> > Buddhists? Not that there would be anything wrong with that. :-)
> First, I guess, it depends how much we can separate spiritual morality from
> religious nationalism. So long as we support static social structures over
> intellectual patterns (no matter how cozy it may make our daily lives) we
> are behaving immorally. I have no problems, for example, with the 10
> Commandments. In fact, I wish more people adhered to them. But I reject
> "enforcing" it because it is "revealed by God to a wandering tribe in
> Israel". Why not promote it, along with the 12-fold path, and other
> spiritual principles, as intellectual patterns to improve ourselves and our
> social patterns, rather than singling out one and promoting it "because God
> says so"?
First, thanks for a thoughtful response. Second, how can "spiritual"
principles become "intellectual patterns?" Seems to me a spiritual
principle is known through revelation, not reason. Finally, as you know,
intellectual patterns (reasoning) can be used to support any moral
position someone wants to promote (absent a rational morality such as the
MOQ). Unless we can appeal to a higher power for moral guidance, are we
not defenseless against the whims of those who wield the coercive power of
government?
> I think I reject the idea that the only choices we have are favoring
> religious nationalism or moral relativity. Many people behave morally in
> this country and elsewhere that are not doing so out of blind obedience to
> a God. I think we should give people more credit than that. "Thou Shall Not
> Kill", for example, embodies an intellectual pattern that can be open to
> anyone. It does not need to be wrapped in the veneer of "because the
> Christian God tells you not to". Or any other God for that matter, again I
> am not picking on Christianity per se.
I'm not sure that "Thou shall not kill" is much of an intellectual
pattern, that is, based on an in depth rational analysis of alternatives.
Rather, I see it as a social pattern required to maintain the viability of
an in group. There's no hesitancy in killing members of the out group if
the in group is attacked. The Giant is no Jesus.
> Also, I think what bothers me about the whole "Judeo-Christian" morality,
> is that few people actually adhere to it. It is used to "condemn" the
> behavior of others, to be sure. For example, Jesus' life was heavily
> devoted to feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless and healing the
> sick. If *these* moralities were legislated, a lot of people would be in an
> uproar.
Keeping in mind that legislation is coercion, Jesus implored people to act
morally for the sake of their everlasting souls, not for the sake of
staying out of jail. Whether one precludes the other is, of course, highly
debatable. We've had plenty of exchanges to know where each of stands in
that debate.
> But, talk about "homosexuality", and every Christian around goes
> screaming for laws to protect us.
Do you have gay marriage in mind?
> We, as a people, like using God to tell
> others what they can't do, but hate having God tell us what we should do.
> (How many people actually keep the Sabbath holy?
Which is why I shy away from legislation to enforce the morality of Jesus
mentioned above.
What I take away from your answer in general that it's OK to use the Judeo-
Christian basis for morality so long as it isn't used to justify national
interests and doesn't rely for its legitimacy on God. In other words,
moral foundations such as the 10 commandments can be legitimatized by
intellect alone without appealing to any spiritual source. Is that
somewhere close to your position?
If so, I don't know of any philosophy that deliberately sets out to
justify Judeo-Christian principles of morality on a strictly rational
basis. Perhaps you or someone can lead me to such a philosophy.
Platt
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