From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Tue May 10 2005 - 20:53:29 BST
> msh:
> Anyone who benefits from the existence of others is not self-reliant.
> The notion of self-reliance is a delusion.
So Ralph Waldo Emerson, author of the famous essay "On Self-Reliance,"
was delusional? Somehow I consider his thoughts to be of higher quality than
yours. I wonder why.
>tfp
> In the Randian world, men deal with other men freely as
> traders, using money as their means of non-sacrificial valuation in a
> transaction in which both parties win. The alternative is the muzzle
> of a gun.
> msh::
> There are other alternatives. For example, to cut the Gary Cooper
> High Noon delusions, and recognize that we are all in this together,
> that cooperation, not competition, produces the highest quality
> results for all.
To quote from one of my favorite authors, and up to now I thought yours:
"The ideal of a harmonious society in which everyone without coercion
cooperates happily with everyone else for the mutual good of all is a
devastating fiction." (Lila, 24)
Now who's delusional?
> tfp:
> You obviously forgot or never realized that all the goods ever
> produced and all the wealth ever created that makes it possible for
> governments to build libraries and museums and pay firemen and
> policemen comes from the minds of individuals orchestrating
> productive work.
> msh:
> Please provide a single example of a self-reliant individual who has
> created great wealth for himself.
Bill Gates. A self-reliant individual by definition is one "having
confidence in and exercising one's own powers or judgment." (Merriam-
Webster).
> tfp:
> Furthermore, you bundled taxpayer -funded products with those
> provided by the free market as if there was no difference between the
> power of free men engaging in free trade and the power of government
> coercion.
> msh says:
> There are no free-markets. Or can you provide an example of one?
The exchange between me and my local Piggly-Wiggly grocery store.
> And the development of any product requires the ideas and cooperation of
> many people, past and present, as well as the availability of
> state-sponsored common resources. Or can you provide an example of a
> product that does not?
As I said, self-reliance doesn't mean independence from others. Don't you
read? Or do you just bluster?.
> tfp:
> Finally, you have tried to associate yourself with some ideal "fully-
> realized" person who preaches about "our common humanity," yet when
> push comes to shove you refer to "all you Randians out there" as if
> they were a separate species.
> msh:
> They are not a separate species. They are a self-deluded subset of
> our species whose notions of self-reliance often lead to behavior
> that directly threatens the well-being of our species as a whole.
Still, are not these awful people part of our common humanity you claim to
embrace with open arms?
> tfp:
> Oh well. It comes as no surprise that the leftist mind comes with a
> built in set of hilarious contradictions.
> msh:
> This is just more slander without evidence and argument.
See all the above, and the self-evidence contained in the previous post.
I won't ask what the initials "ftp" stand for because it might reveal yet
another slander on your part. :-)
Platt
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